ROS raid diamonds vs TBL/TOV nuggets

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fian, Jul 15, 2020.

  1. svann Augur

    If the ideal is to prevent folks from totally gearing up on T1 raid ores you could have them only drop in T2 and 3 raids.
  2. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    I am fine with whatever Ngreth decides.

    I am leaning more towards raid drops being BiS, but I don't mind the current ToV method.

    Because they are BiS, I do think that they should cost more on the raid vendor, and change the following drop rates:
    - T1 - 0 Nuggets drop
    - T2 - 1 Nugget per raid until 6 months, then 2 drop per raid.
    - T3 - 1 Nugget per raid until 6 months, then 3 drop per raid.

    Change my mind.
  3. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Why are you even entertaining the notion of listening to whining people that simply don't want to make tradeskill items or who have guilds with stupid loot systems or players that make dumb choices?

    Best in slot is a thing. Unless its no longer going to be a thing, it exists and it doesn't matter what method, dumb/lazy people will sit around not looting things they could because they want to "wait for best" or "don't want to spend plat on tradeskill items".

    The TS drop is nice because you have *no wasted loot*. You don't have 20 of one thing an 0 of another drop so that you have alts looting best in slot backs while no mains have best in slot belts, or whatever.

    If you want "best in slot" to mean something, then put it back in chests, make it SIGNIFICANTLY better than all other drops for all classes, make it a semi rare global drop (any raid chest has a 1 in 4 chance of dropping ONE from the list of 25 or so drops), then make your standard raid drops and no TS drops at all.

    Make looting the BIS rares require all raids killed, and cost 5 times what other gear costs.

    Otherwise, if we're having loot drop like it has been for like, 12 years now, its all freaking moot, because anyone that raids regularly gets everything and we all have the same gear.

    I'd rather we stop making obviously bad options and having so much loot drop than any of this argument.
    Allayna, Zvenn and adetia like this.
  4. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    The second method actually popped into my head as an idea, I wasn't sure if it was really feasible though. The first method seems like it would make the TS items a lot harder to gear out with.
  5. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    As a mid-tier raider, I preferred the RoS method. However, I do think that class-specific items need to be in T1-T2 raids, not T3. Leave T3 for the juicier jewelry and such. It's not fun being, for example, a Ranger and watching your Rogue guildies get their Rogue-only daggers in T1 while you have to wait until T3 for an upgrade, assuming your guild can beat the T3 raid to get your item at all.
    Tarvas likes this.
  6. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    I very much prefered the T1 as tradeskill gear in RoS it made it a lot easier to fully kit out an app or a returning member and make them viable on a raid, without going back and farming the previous expansion for months especially as you needed T1 armour to make T2.

    With the volume of loot currently dropping I don't see this as an issue, but if we return to the normal drop rates next expansion without the double loot at 6 months it would be nice to have an easier way to help app/returnees catch up to close to raid gear in a reasonable amount of time.
  7. Bigstomp Augur


    Coins are going to increase again soon to 40.

    And as for drowning... have you seen a modern raid chest? We drown, get resurrected, and drown again during each chest drop.

    Unless you're after glowing spells. Then you're stuck in the kiddy pool.
    Coagagin likes this.
  8. Fian Augur

    Self-edit - let's just say I am unhappy with this response. The above is not what we were asking for. It seems most want raid TS that is less than the normal raid drop, not solutions that make it harder to get any kind of upgrade to your raid gear.

    In response to your proposals:
    Method 1 - This is similar to needing an EOK raid drop to make a piece of ROS raid armor. People hated it, and the fact that it wasn't implemented post-ROS shows that you learned from the mistake. Please Please Please don't repeat this kind of mistake in the next expansion.
    Method 2 - This would be the same as pre-ROS. If you do this, you might as well get rid of diamonds/muhbis/nugget entirely. The nice thing about TS raid is it allows raid forces to get an upgrade even if they can't beat the raid that drops the similar item. A lot of raid forces never beat all of the raids, and let's say you're a ranger, and the bow upgrade drops in a late T2 or T3 raid. Your raid force may never beat it, and you are stuck using the raid bow from the prior expansion. From the ROS method, you at least can get a bow upgrade from the expansion, even if it isn't quite as good as actual raid drop.
    Allayna likes this.
  9. Ibudin Augur

    I prefer the way it is over ROS. While I geared up a bunch of characters on un-looted diamonds back in the day, I like how TBL/TOV has implemented the TS item as best in slot...as it should be. It created a market for TS'ers to sell the items, and allowed guildmates who had lower points to get the needed visible drops while long time raiders who saved BKP to bid and win the diamonds. At this point of the expac, just about everyone who raids must have a few diamonds if not geared fully with diamonds.

    What I would like to see is what they did in EOK era which would be an adder, so you would have base visibles, diamonds for TS gear best in slot, and then super rare chest item not on vendor that is used to upgrade multiple quested items - like the wurm slayer, and caster shield...and healing branch. When those items dropped, you would see people unload all their BKP to get them lol, loved that.
    adetia likes this.
  10. Fian Augur

    The only reason there wasn't a TS market for the raid TS items was it required a raid drop to make the container. Raid forces required that the raid drops go to their raiders, not be sold on baz. There would still be a market for TS items, even if TS raid gear was less than the regular gear.

    On the group side, I think you either need to require TS to be best in class, or not require a no-trade drop to make an item. If group TS is less than drop, and it requires a no drop item from the purchaser, then the market would crater.
    Yinla likes this.
  11. minimind The Village Idiot

    So very much this. I liked that RoS diamonds were the easier raid loot but required tradeskills, but I absolutely didn't like that you need EoK armor as a component of RoS armor. Especially in the group game, that just ensured that I completely skipped RoS on my alts and waited to loot rots in TBL.
  12. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    Oh. I definitely planed to leave RoK, TBL, and ToV the way it is.
    I'm conversing about how to implement it next expansion. Or generically, "In the future", not alter the past.
    Andarriel and minimind like this.
  13. Fian Augur

    Yes, I agree. No point trying to change the past expansions.
  14. Mysl Augur

    I like the ToV method. In the RoS method, it just make it more steps, you have to as a TS person to loot one diamond for you, and you have to loot the other one, and if the TS person failed on the combine to create the kit, you have to bid on another diamond next raid.
    In the ToV method, I can bid on the nugget, and just get the container later, and it does not matter how many failures I have on the container, I do not have to rebid a nugget next time.
    Coagagin and adetia like this.
  15. adetia Monkess Wonder, Ruler of All

    I dislike the first method profoundly. I'm not crazy about the other, but here's how I feel about the subject in general:

    I didn't mind the diamond system. I don't mind the current system. People who are regular attenders in guilds who make it a point to farm out for their roster will be just fine no matter what you decide, but requiring a drop and then a ts on top is unwieldy for me. I like the notion of having zero waste. I generally do not prefer systems that require you to have stuff from last tier or last expansion even to complete the next one.

    I like keeping the visible drops even though they are a little shoddier then the TS items - its like alt extravaganza. while i dont have alts or enjoy them lots do and its a little perk to be able to wing them the gear and keeps people happy, interested etc. Its also a very tidy way to instantly kit out new members or candidates whose gear is insufficient until they can earn their nuggets.

    I like that I, as guild leader, can make all the gear I choose to and hand out the containers - I prefer to eat the costs of making all this crap instead of passing those costs on to all of my members. If I'm not fast enough or someone needs it *THIS VERY INSTANT* then they can make it themself and thats fine.

    i feel like the current loot system has a bit of this and that for just about everybody. Spells are flowing better now since the doubling - glowings are still very limited.

    if i was going to have one impact upon loot it would simply be to stop making so much of the dropped loot items -- not making it DROP LESS - but what i mean is, instead of making say, 5 necks (this is just a random example) when everybody and their brother only ever loots one of them - is overkill. Make 2 or even just the one. Streamline it, so it has a chance to drop more often. Every expansion there's items where I think to myself nobody has ever looted any of these versions except *this one*, and to me its a nobrainer to clean that up a bit - less work for the devs, less drop competition, etc.

    I also think the nuggets are priced appropriately and just fine in Tier 1 Raids. Low to mid tier guilds have it hard enough - and for the bigger picture of the health of a game that is 20+ years in, what does it really hurt if they have some best in slot items even though they've never pursued higher tier raids? Does it hurt me or lessen my experience? No, it does not. Does it make them happy? I'd sure hope so. I like the concept of them starting at 1 and ramping up, and if people choose to never loot an item on raids and only go with nuggets, more power to them - they're going to be actively playing for awhile to see that plan through!

    In short, Ng - personally I'd rather see less item work for you then more. But I really don't think we should:
    1. Make it more complicated (requiring pieces from previous tier, raid drops or expansion)
    2. Make it more isolating (requiring every person to make their own gear)
    3. Make it so more stuff is wasted.
    4. Make it cost more, either in time invested, currency spent or frequency of dropping.

    Edited to add, I have a slight preference to ToV over the diamond system because if I fail on the container, I don't have to raid again to get another. (thanks to previous poster for pointing that out!) i mean, this was easily combatted by my just hoovering up all the extras before and occasionally taking a few to catch up if i failed but, this way just costs my time, resources and plat.
  16. Zvenn Just an old monk

    or a simple solution to solve both is just make the tradeskill raid set the exact same stats as the regular raid drop set...just name the set something different, then there is no worry on best in slot as both avenues are best in slot, go for what you prefer...if you like tradeskilling take the tradeskill route, if you dont then take the drop route.

    or if you really wanna add some variance in the mix add some set bonuses (i know its stealing it from WoW but i did like that with their armor sets) so that raid drop set has Y bonus for owning X pieces of a set and tradeskill set has Z bonus for owning X pieces of that set, doesnt have to be a game changing bonus or anything but would then add some flavor to the 2 sets since the rest is all the same...or even the ability to mix and match to maybe get a 3 piece and 5 piece bonus of 2 sets...i dunno, just spit balling here :)
  17. Mazame Augur

    I like the idea of the TS being a upgrade to the raid gear. It would make most of the raid gear get used and the over abundance of coin we get we can use to buy the Raid gear slot we need and then use the "TS item" to upgrade it.

    Those that raid get rewarded and those that put in the extra effort to do TS get a bump for their efforts
  18. German Augur

    The best part of the TS item is your choice, you can go with whatever works and not take away an item that might be better for an app or alt.

    Say you are an enchanter and fell for the "that's a caster belt" joke and got a melee proc belt - you wouldn't want to upgrade that to the TS melee proc belt (or maybe you would).

    Then there is the luck fusing.

    The current system works pretty well for player choice, its just having Ear, Head, Feet, Hands, Shoulders less desired by many has those items rotting pretty fast - combined with a stringy RNG giving you 4 bracers or froo froo boards in a chest there is waste.
  19. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    This is where I disagree, I'd like to see more choice, but those choices actually mean something.

    As a caster I looked at Mana, hero int and spell damage, most items have the same spell damage on them so that is 1 less thing to look at. :rolleyes: Looking at TS charms if you work on hero int you would go for Brilliance, but overall that works out as less mana than the Security aug as it has 126 extra mana with a loss of only 2 Hero int. Security also has the highest AC so in this case the item aimed at tanks is the best item also for casters. There are other cases of this but this one is the most noticable and this is why some items no one really wants.

    There is so little difference between items these days, they could get away with just making 1 item for all, but instead of that I'd like to see more choices. Most items in a slot have the same Mana regen, HP regen, same spell damage, heal damage etc. About the only thing other than heroics which change is the spell resist and I don't know anyone who bothers to look at those as I believe we have all been over the cap for years.

    I'd also like to see an earring with equivalent stats to the pet earring but without those 3 classes on it. TS earring for pet classes is 10,000 mana and 71 Hero int/wis compared to the best other earring with 9460-9585 mana and 30-34 hero int/wis, from what I have seen no other item of gear has anywhere near 71 in any hero stat.
    Coagagin likes this.
  20. Allayna Augur

    Machin Shin has 223 nuggets from chests to date. If beta remains as previous years, we have another ~ 3 months of gearing drops at 9 targets x 2 nuggets per chest x 12 weeks = 216 nuggets. We have also been doing 3-4 targets on our second raid night on alts so lets say another 8 nuggets per night.

    Most 100% attendance raiders will not spend a cent on a nugget because coin has increased and will increase again, and if you planned well, can gear 1 full toon in nuggets without ever looting from a raid chest all year.

    I personally like the tradeskills being a step above the dropped loot, and my rationale is that it requires time outside of raids doing tradeskills + raid drop whereas the alternative requires just looting a drop from the chest.

    By comparison Machin Shin has 326 muhbis from raid chests and that includes the occasional time going back and doing achievements or raiding on alts to get dissident upgrades etc in 2020.

    If I had a vote, I'd probably follow a similar pattern to Adetia's suggestion:
    T1 - 1 TS drop, doesn't increase, neither does the coin from doing T1
    T2 - 2 TS drops, doesn't increase, neither does the coin but it starts as double from T1
    T3 - 3 TS drops, doesn't increase, neither does the coin but it starts as double from T2

    Similar to the way TBM worked for coin. In my head, that only works if the expansion actually increases in difficulty and isn't the loot pinata of ToV. Each tier should have a mini boss IMHO that drops some unique item as well.

    I hope that evolving items continue and in different slots or continuation of those current items as well.
    adetia and Cadira like this.