Rogues need something in TLP's

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Legionarius - Xegony, May 15, 2019.

  1. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    While I appreciate the damage AA's as Rogues level up they make little difference. They are a pure DPS class and aren't intended for soloing. That said, Rogues need a group on progression servers. They get passed up for groups all the time from vanilla EQ all the way into and perhaps even through PoP and GoD.

    I would like to propose to the developers a change that would help the Rogue population for those of us who love the Rogue class no matter what, and have to hide our shame.

    Change:
    -Allow Rogues to buy Bite of the Shissar I from a poison vendor in each major town, but make it level 30+ usable, not level 10. You can add Bite of the Shissar II or III later, maybe at 65+? Or, you could have the poisons do far less dmg.

    Option#2:
    Add quality poisons to poison crafting with 60 counts instead of 1 charge that you have to sit down to apply again later.

    Option#3:
    Nerf everyone else (not gonna happen)

    Option#4:
    Change melee math for rogues so their backstabs and/or auto attacks do much more. Doing less damage than a mage pet that's lower level than you sort of takes away from the fun.

    Please note, that progression servers are just that.. progression. They are not time period servers and there are a lot of things that TLP's have that live servers in 1999 - 2004 never even thought of. This doesn't break the game. The mobs that are important have mark of the mighty to compensate. The thing that this accomplishes, is making Rogues (A pure DPS class) competitive for DPS group spots. Do Rogues have to be as high as Wizards and mages? Yes. Yes, that's kind of the point.
  2. Truthfire Lorekeeper

    In an asymmetrical game, someone has to be the worst. I'm sorry if you enjoy the class thematically, but Rogues are hands down the worst class all the way into Live. Their only "plus" is that no one plays them, so any Rogue-specific loot is pretty much defaulted to you.
    andross77 likes this.
  3. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    It's the 'hands down' part that I think needs to change. At gates they get much better, by the time Underfoot hits, they're top tier then fluctuate after that but are still fine if you get one in your group. The problem isn't that they're not on the top. The problem is that they're so bad, that people have empty slots while Rogues LFG because they're waiting for someone else to LFG. .. Even an extra Warrior...
  4. Kaysa New Member

    Like Truthfire said someone has to be the worst. If you enjoy playing that class you shouldn't complain. Most rogues are fully geared before 99% of the other classes are.
    andross77 likes this.
  5. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    I understand the asymmetry of DPS classes. The problem isn't that we're last. The problem is how far that gap is from the 2nd to the worst DPS.
  6. Bobbybick Augur

    The problem lies with daggers and the way that base weapon damage and backstab damage was linked all the way until TSS. Because they didn't want rogues to backstab for insane amounts 1HPiercing weapons suffer from some of the worst ratios in the game and this results in a huge primary autoattack DPS loss which is where you see a large chunk of the disparity in DPS between a class like a rogue and monk.

    But then PoP and GoD roll around and now even though you are "worse" than a monk you still crush casters until at least SoD. EQ is just not a balanced game and unless you want to play Mr. Fisticuffs or Mr Big Axe every DPS class is going to have weak/strong eras (some more than others).
    Boze likes this.
  7. Firekat11 New Member

    I disagree with the notion that someone has to be last in a game with dps tanks healers and Support a DPS class ( and lets be honest its the only thing a rog brings to the table anymore ) should not be doing less dmg than a tank or a pet

    few options I see to bring them up a little bit in tlp

    1 ) best option rework BS dmg on daggers to allow them to get some rather nice Back stabs there base atk would suck but getting them behind a mob and they can make it bleed a bit

    2) rework classic poison a bit or add in some 10 20 30 40 50 poisons like you did with augs

    3) add in some utility to the class poison used to cover this but monsters seem to be immune to everything even poison I can see them having a un-resistible slow poison that is like 30%

    its rather sad if you ask me Rogs should be the Highest single target melee dps hands down but there outclassed completely by a Monk that can also pull way better oh and he won't even need a weapon since his fists are better
  8. Moranis Augur

    Rogues certainly get the short end of the DPS-stick. I agree that re-working their poisons and/or re-working the backstab damage table would really help out. They have the dual threat of being an incredibly vanilla class with no real abilities and not even being really good at their job (DPS).

    I would point out though that once they get the Tunare dagger in SoV, they can definitely compete with monks on parses.
  9. Spayce Augur

    The devs certainly won't be reworking anything for TLP servers, so asking for anything even remotely close to that is a waste of time.

    At best, you can try to build a case around adding a handful of augs/poisons that are rogue specific. Maybe those rogue only augs add non-backstab damage to daggers. Maybe they make some weaker poisons available.

    I suggest crunching some numbers, figure out the real gap in DPS between Monks and Rogues, and then make a common sense aug/poison plan where 2-3 easy to implement items are added to the early game that closes that gap. Don't go crazy with the damage bump and lose all credibility in the discussion though.

    The issues with Rogues are very real, especially early, and the "well someone has to suck" argument is pretty dumb, even for these forums.
  10. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    Not everyone get's a Tunare dagger, Mrylo dagger or things like that. It's more about grouping and having fun than beating monks in raids. imo.
    Gremin likes this.
  11. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    @ Spayce - They literally just added extended targets. I think they're okay with adding things?
  12. kdomg Journeyman

    +1

    I always have faith that these forum warriors will always reach new depths of stupidity in postulating reasons for why things just can't happen. Cause yeah, fixing rogues breaks the game.
  13. Firekat11 New Member

    Reworking back stab dmg on dagger is rather easy just add in rog only augs with + BS dmg on them the only probblem would be the slot really not sure how hard it would be to add a slot on the daggers or if they can make it so the back stab dmg is a clear win over the proc augs
  14. BlueberryWerewolf Augur


    They can and have been persuaded to add existing things to TLP servers, but they aren't going to restructure how class abilities fundamentally work for TLP servers.
  15. Spayce Augur

    I'm going to assume letting everyone use an existing game mechanic is a little easier than adding items to the game, or completely revamping damage tables for a class.

    It took me months of constantly badgering the dev and support teams, and file charge backs with my credit card, just to get the graphic on incarnadine legs changed from cloth to plate so my ogre didn't look like he was wearing a skirt. That change literally required changing a single integer value to make the item use the correct graphic asset, and took months to get done by this dev team.

    That is the level of support these TLP servers get, so folks need to make requests that are reasonable.

    Rogues unquestionably need a buff early, so come up with easy to implement fixes that don't cause collateral issues anywhere else. Simple solution appears to be 2-3 augs or poisons to boost DPS a bit. So come up with some actual data, make a concrete suggestion, and badger the devs with it until they listen.
  16. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    It's strange how everyone in EQ says "it will never happen" to everything, and most of the time they do happen.
  17. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    Fixing rogues, isn't labor intensive. i don't get why people think it is.
  18. Boze Augur

    Usually when people ask for specific boosts like this it results in other classes getting nerfed instead. Just look at GMM BeltGate on the vet lounge. Sure, there probably is an easy fix, but the fix is unlikely to be what you want. Rogues do dps, I don't see the problem. Why does everyone always panic if they're not top on parse at all times?
  19. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    @ Boze, any improvement would help. I'm not picky. I'm not expecting them to just allow vendor poisons which would make them top dps, but just something you know?
  20. Legionarius - Xegony Lorekeeper

    @ Boze, you haven't read the comments i've been making i'm guessing. I don't care if i'm top dps. The struggle isn't that rogues aren't #1. The problem is the very large gap between the 2nd to the last dps and rogues. It's big, and everyone knows it.

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