Rogues Lower DPS than Tanks?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Poyzen Frawg, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Allayna Augur

    I appreciate the in-depth and thoughtful response.

    We definitely don’t “call for burns” like a lot of guilds. We do burns at the group level and sometimes there are instances where an adps class misses the mark.

    I like the look at dmg done, we have improved over the past 2 years and will continue to do so.

    The problem within EQ is the knowledge loss as people retire or “worse” join the enemy camp.
    Sancus likes this.
  2. Thrillho Augur

    It's very difficult to do proper comparisons in EQ. There is so much that goes into performance that doesn't get shown in the parses that get posted. Group makeup is a big one - proper ADPS is key. Group dynamics is a big one as well - having the ADPS doesn't mean you'll succeed if you're not coordinated with each other. Class knowledge. Gear. Weapons. Augs. Spells. Buffs. AAs (ideally maxed, but not always the case). Tribute. Are the burns up? Or were they used up on the previous event or mob? Are the roles the same?

    I know a few SKs who parse quite well. I know a few melee who don't. Comparing equal players in equal settings, a melee should beat an SK every time. Low tier vs low tier, mid vs mid, or high vs high. The rankings should be the same. Those stupid zerkers at the top taking all the glory, and tanks below the DPS. Comparing different classes from different tiers is going to cause a headache.
  3. Sancus Augur

    It's difficult, and even within RoI there's a reasonable amount of variation within classes. Some of which is RNG dependent, since some classes have RNG elements that can materially affect their output, but a lot of it also comes from skill/knowledge deviations. I think that gap has grown rather alarmingly over time and I don't envy the developers trying to deal with that in a 20 year old game and with limited resources.

    On a more positive note, I actually think balance is relatively good right now. There's probably one class that's a bit high (and perhaps a couple non-DPS classes that perform too well with ADPS), and a couple that could use help in specific areas. That said, our top 10's are relatively varied. For example, I made a graph of that Rustbottom run and color coded each class (the colors are random, the point is just to show the variety):

    [IMG]

    Those damage values are close enough that relatively small variations due to skill (or adps, or rng, or w/e) can fairly drastically change your position. An ~8.7% increase in DPS would take #8 to #3. I think the ideal balance for DPS classes is that variations in skill can put you in the top 5 or push you out of the top 10 fairly readily, and my experience is that's generally true on TBL raids.

    So balance isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than it has been in some other expansions IMO.
    Belexes likes this.
  4. Tucoh Augur

    Not to derail but one thing I really enjoyed when I used raid in WoW (especially back in the 40 man raid days) is how tight the groupings would be between the DPS only classes (mages, rogues, hunters, warlocks) on really clean kills. On mage-friendly fights you'd see a clean stratification with the mages a solid 10% ahead of everyone else, and if a mage dipped below our top rogue we'd all over him for the rest of the night.


    EQ is a jumbled mess with fewer classes and much more variability, so you more frequently get charts like the above even in clean kills with top-shelf players trying hard. You can't as cleanly mock berserkers #2,#3,#4 for not breaking the top ten while berserker #1 is in the top spot (or whatever).

    That's actually one reason I kind of love the game so much. It's so complex from the layer after layer of gameplay that gets released every year that I'm constantly learning new ways to get better
  5. Cicelee Augur

    I always thought orange was an underrated color. Yet here you are trying to nerf the color orange with your fancy bar graphs...
    Brohg, Thrillho and Sancus like this.
  6. Bahdah Augur

    When Sancus pops out with graphs... you're done.
  7. Drogba Augur


    Different classes require different adps to max out. Give an sk a bard, or a warrior a bard for instance, the warrior should be better. But throw in all the other ADPS stuff, and make it single target so the warrior can't furious, and the SK will be better. A parse also doesn't tell you the cirumstances (e.g was the tank even trying to min-max dps for a start, as well as capable of doing so) That's why trying to compare apples to oranges in such scenario's is pretty silly. So you don't compare them. You can make those sort of comparisons with one rogue vs. another rogue, but not with 2 completely different classes.

    This is why you want to look to find the best DPS parses out there for both classes on the same event+timeframe+expansion.
  8. Xaque New Member


    Gee, Thanks Allayna

    … and I thought performance in a top guild mattered. Apparently, its only use is to fuel a nerf campaign.

    Mediocre 110 SK LFGuild


    Xaque
  9. Cadira Augur

    My question;

    Should ANY tank be capable of this much dps (minus HT, im talking straight melee dps etc)?

    Haven't tanks only been capable of laughable amounts of dps for the majority of eq's history?
  10. Brohg Augur

    no
  11. Cadira Augur

    well, maybe not laughable but about half of what a dps class can do tops from what i remember.
  12. Hambang New Member

    I’m more of a believer that the toughness/tanking margins should be lower. Not a Dps nerf. Tanks are in a fantastic spot no doubt, but they don’t out dps real dps. But the tanking margins are wayy off.
  13. Brohg Augur

    class balance was different from phase3 of RoF (that expansion had a staged rollout that substantially altered … everything, halfway through) through CotF & TDS, wherein tank dps was indeed the pits. That was also the period where taking hits from anything was most ridiculously lethal for non-tanks. Before then & since TBM, tank dps has been more like 80% of dps classes. Larger differences typically seen in raids have most to do with stacking appropriate ADPS to magnify the difference.
  14. Cadira Augur

    I just remember my raid geared warrior always having a bard in group (boxed, though) back in House of Thule and my dps was about half to two thirds of a regular dps. And years before that my dps was 30-50% (granted, was group geared back then). And back then there weren't even weapon stances or huge buffs given to warriors that I remember, it was pretty simple dps.

    I could be wrong, but seems wrong that a tank is the only one that can take brutal amounts of damage AND compete on parses with dps classes at all.
  15. Leezard New Member


    The real frustration here (I think) is that Tanks don't need melee (non tanks) to "win". If I remember as far back as 10 years ago, EQ was designed to win together and die die alone. Its not like that any longer. I'm not so sure its because DPS is so balanced that we are ALL DPS, or if its just a matter of you need to work damn hard to stand out.

    Sometimes the thank will have better DPS than you. <Shrug> Did you get exp? Did you get loot? Tell him thank you and sorry for sucking.
  16. Brohg Augur

    Shield Specialist AA was introduced in Secrets of Faydwer. With the second tier of Shield Specialist AA released in Seeds of Discord, 1h+shield was the premier setup for warriors straight through the period you're talking about. Agro was a touch shaky playing against, in particular, beastlords in Underfoot, but dps was great.
  17. Cadira Augur

    yeah, I remember shield specialist really bringing dps up. BUT it was still at the level I mentioned. Maybe I played with some great dps'ers if they were making my dps half of theirs.
  18. Brohg Augur

    could be! :)
    Cadira likes this.
  19. Chaosflux Augur

    Was that before or after warriors got their dps nerfed because it was "alittle" high.

    If we are talking HOT era, warriors were still benefitting greatly from the aria/aura guaranteed flurry bug. IIRC.
  20. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Is this real for real, real via trolling the troll, or sarcasm meter material?

    I can’t tell, but want to [know moar].