Rogues Lower DPS than Tanks?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Poyzen Frawg, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Tolzol Augur

    Every bit of that parse is low except for that one sk. All those classes should be a lot higher if that was a burn. Comparing a good sk to sh*t dps isn’t fair at all when tryin to nerf a class.
    Sancus, Spellfire and Behelit like this.
  2. Allayna Augur

    /GU Effortless Eruption of Spirit in 103s, 1,308.9m @12707985 | #1 Rogue 82706k@803.0k (852.6k in 97s) [6.32%] {G} | #2 Berserker + pets 80275k@779.4k (845.0k in 95s) [6.13%] | #3 ShadowKnight 79586k@772.7k (829.0k in 96s) [6.08%] {B} | #4 Berserker 65924k@640.0k (686.7k in 96s) [5.04%] | #5 Ranger 60662k@589.0k (659.4k in 92s) [4.63%] | #17 Warrior 32395k@314.5k (348.3k in 93s) [2.47%] | #24 Paladin 22271k@216.2k (234.4k in 95s) [1.7%]

    /GU Rustbottom, Grinder of Gears in 288s, 3,316.4m @11515235 | #1 Berserker + pets 159.9m@555.3k (559.2k in 286s) [4.82%] | #2 Berserker + pets 147.2m@511.0k (512.8k in 287s) [4.44%] {G} | #3 Ranger + pets 141.1m@489.8k (509.2k in 277s) [4.25%] | #4 Rogue + pets 131.5m@456.5k (459.7k in 286s) [3.96%] {G} | #5 ShadowKnight + pets 131.1m@455.0k (476.5k in 275s) [3.95%] {BG} | #6 Necromancer + pets 129.5m@449.7k (464.2k in 279s) [3.91%] {G} | #7 ShadowKnight + pets 127.8m@443.7k (445.3k in 287s) [3.85%] {BG} | #24 Warrior 64200k@222.9k (223.7k in 287s) [1.94%] {G} | #33 Paladin 40095k@139.2k (141.2k in 284s) [1.21%] {7G}

    /GU Mechagnomic Whirlrender in 379s, 3,525.2m @9301374 | #1 Berserker + pets 172.0m@453.9k (458.8k in 375s) [4.88%] | #2 Berserker + pets 164.2m@433.3k (439.1k in 374s) [4.66%] | #3 ShadowKnight + pets 153.8m@405.9k (412.4k in 373s) [4.36%] {BG} | #4 ShadowKnight + pets 130.6m@344.7k (344.7k in 379s) [3.71%] {GB} | #5 Ranger + pets 129.9m@342.7k (349.2k in 372s) [3.68%] | #22 Warrior + pets 80776k@213.1k (217.7k in 375s) [2.29%] {7} | #34 Paladin + pets 45627k@120.4k (121.3k in 376s) [1.29%] {G}

    /GU Mechagnomic Whirlrender in 379s, 3,525.2m @9301374 | #1 Berserker + pets 172.0m@453.9k (458.8k in 375s) [4.88%] | #2 Berserker + pets 164.2m@433.3k (439.1k in 374s) [4.66%] | #3 ShadowKnight + pets 153.8m@405.9k (412.4k in 373s) [4.36%] {BG} | #4 ShadowKnight + pets 130.6m@344.7k (344.7k in 379s) [3.71%] {GB} | #5 Ranger + pets 129.9m@342.7k (349.2k in 372s) [3.68%] | #22 Warrior + pets 80776k@213.1k (217.7k in 375s) [2.29%] {7} | #34 Paladin + pets 45627k@120.4k (121.3k in 376s) [1.29%] {G}

    I picked the top warrior and top paladin from each group of raid targets last night. I picked raid targets where we are bunched together for accurate parsing. No the paladin and warrior were not in adps groups. But I guarantee if I put a warrior, shadowknight and paladin in similar adps compliments we all know who would come out on top. That's not excellent gameplay that's class imbalance.

    I personally don't think tanks should be top 10 on a parse for dmg output.
    I know it's a weird concept...but I think....idk, dps should top a dps parse, like wizards, necros, berserkers, mages, rogues, monks, rangers....
  3. Tolzol Augur

    See above comment. I agree tanks should not be top 10.
    Belexes and Sancus like this.
  4. sojero Augur


  5. Repthor Augur

    Did the warrs have a bard?? Also 200k-300k is enough to break in to your top ten seems low . We got bards and enchies hitting 400- 500k. I will say we got 4-5 rangers for a good rot of auspice. With no support in my group at all i can break 250- 300k. Thats blowing all the things except destruction. 300k nowadays is pretty low for anyclass capble of pretending to dps on a raid burst.
    Sancus likes this.
  6. Allayna Augur

    Depends on the fight. I know that burns were down going into Whirl, we don't waste time between events like some guilds.

    We also don't allow enchanters to dot due to debuff slot issues.
  7. gotwar Augur

    [IMG]
    RPoo, Mintalie, Warpeace and 3 others like this.
  8. Behelit Augur

    How are burns down going into Whirl? You burn Rustbottom, coast thru 2nd event, and burns are all back up for Whirlrender?

    And you're parses aren't showing anything about tank dps so much as they are showing alot of your dps classes aren't playing to potential.
    Tolzol and Sancus like this.
  9. gotwar Augur

    Gotcharms -vs- Combined: Glorious Battleworn Monolith:

    -- DMG: 901991134
    -- DirDmg: 611483182 || 67.8%
    -- DoT: 289189526 || 32.1%
    -- Crush: 1318426 || 0.1%

    Each Enchanter only uses two debuff slots for DoTs (Mind Tempest + Strangulate... three if they're feeling really ambitious and add Constriction in) and it comprises a third of our DPS. I'm so sad rn. Those poor Enchanters.

    :(
    RPoo likes this.
  10. Allayna Augur

    See the thread about necro dot revamp and 97 debuff limits. Each enchanter uses additional 2 slots outside of the debuffs.
  11. Allayna Augur

    Always be burnin'
  12. Tucoh Augur

    I don't even know enchanters that well, but I just assumed every enchanter are throwing out their amazing

    [57285/6730] Mind Tempest Rk. III
    Classes: ENC/110
    2: Decrease Current Mana by 2378 per tick
    4: Decrease Current HP by 19153 per tick
    5: Return 2.7% of Damage as Mana, Max Per Hit: 530

    [57198/6714] Strangulate Rk. III
    Classes: ENC/108
    1: Decrease Current HP by 28314
    4: Decrease Current HP by 11748 per tick

    DoTs on the reg. Is this not the case?
    RPoo, Sancus and gotwar like this.
  13. Repthor Augur

    well as gotwar said i think thats a mistake there plenty of other useless debuff to ban if you gonna ban bad stuff, enchies 2 big dots are not bad for the raid

    but to eatch of their own

    also you should slap thrillhouse if his not pumpin that deeps higher just slap him real good
  14. menown Augur

    The truely sad part is that Necros have weaker DoTs than other DoT classes. The wounds line can be debated. Maybe the enchanters should get priority on the debuff slot over a necro.
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  15. gotwar Augur

    With three Enchanters running 2x DoTs each:

    1x Tash
    1x Lingering Cry
    1x Somnolence
    +6 DoT slots
    =
    9 slots total. So 3 each. For roughly a billion damage a night.

    More importantly, you're making them drop their second best nuke (Strangulate), so they're losing even more from the "Direct Damage" category. And Mind Tempest, even after accounting for the low Enchanter DoT crit rate, beats out a slew of low-tier Necromancer DoTs (among others from other classes).

    In other words, you're crippling your Enchanters damage potential for weaker options.
    RPoo and Sancus like this.
  16. Tucoh Augur

    It really is ridiculous that necros are being told to calm down the DoT counts to make way for enchanters/rangers/whatever of all classes.
  17. Allayna Augur


    Thrillhouse is ROI.

    Fair points. We are improving as a guild and have been looking at what classes/abilities should never be on a mob.

    I will say it "seems" that melee has a distinct advantage as it would be much easier to just run more melee and less casters and not deal with debuff limits.
  18. Repthor Augur

    even more reason to slap him
    Bahdah, Allayna and Thrillho like this.
  19. ShadowMan Augur

    Faction windows, chat tabs and the other 200 things they have done in the past 3 yrs were all more important
  20. Sancus Augur

    This is one of the reasons class balance is easier said than done. It's really hard to look at a parse with relatively little context and draw conclusions. Player skill is a pretty huge factor, and so is ADPS, things like burns not being up, and event strats.

    To compare to RoI's Stratos burn, for example, we took 51 seconds (about half the duration) and most of our top 5 (with the exception of #3) did more damage (not DPS, damage) in that duration than your equivalent in that top 5:

    [IMG]

    If the top players on that parse are doing less damage in twice the time, that suggests to me something is awry. I'm skeptical that skill differences explain it all, so perhaps burns weren't up or people were missing ADPS or something. Maybe people are burning at different times to avoid dealing with the lag on the last boss (I know my group briefly entertained that idea). I don't know, but given my knowledge of what most DPS classes are capable of, I have a hard time looking at those parses and concluding much relating to class balance.

    Your guild-wide DPS being nearly the same on Rustbottom despite it being almost 3 times as long also leads me to believe there was an issue on the Stratos burn. To do the same comparison to our Rustbottom run, our duration was 212 seconds rather than 288 (so a lot closer):

    [IMG]

    It's closer, but still seems low for a top 5. The SK, had he done the same damage he did on your fight (despite him having 76 more seconds to DPS) would've come in 13th on ours, which doesn't seem as egregious. But there are other factors at play, so it's hard to say how he would perform relative to our DPS (or how our SKs would perform with ADPS). It's just, again, hard to look at those parses and know if class balance is the issue or if there's some other factors causing the discrepancy.
    Belexes, Drogba, kizant and 1 other person like this.

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