Rogues Lower DPS than Tanks?

It seems to me it's you that don't understand. It has been said multiple times in this thread that rogue DPS was better than tank DPS, even coming from some rogue mains.
There has been also parses, posted by some rogue, who proved it. And these parses were showing this rogue doing higher DPS than you for the same around duration.

I guess you throw in those ripostes and it skews things a bit...though even without it..some are doing so well. I just think sometimes about the tanking ability of some of these tank toons. It's almost like rogues should be able to do triple the dps of them kind of like how they can tank double, triple, or quintuple (or more?) the mobs, doing dps to all with riposte and stuff. I've always thought that there would be a day that you cannot riposte beyond like a count of 4 mobs or something...all others would just strike through...lol

Start with the dichotomics etc and how they suck compared to zerkers who also have that sweet recourse. 5 minute recast of some crap + dmg with no recourse....jeez.

Even with riposte, good rogues beat tanks np, as it has been shown in parses. So it means that comparing a rogue and a tank in similar situation, aka a tank not tanking and just DPSing, the gap would be again larger between rogue and tank. Which is showing definately that rogue DPS is largely better than tank DPS, as it should be.

Also each archetype has their advantage. A tank can tank more mobs at same time than a rogue.
But a rogue has also other advantages over tanks.
1) You can SoS through every zone without problem, you can pick collec in every zone without problem.
2) You have better pulling tools than a warrior or a paladin (yes there are classes better than rogues at pulling, but still you are better than some other classes)
3) Advantage to max Artisan's Prize aug. As a rogue, you have access to Poisoncrafting skill, and this TS counts in the total of TS to max Artizan's Prize. And it has way less recipes than other general tradeskills. I won't speak of tinkering cause tanks and rogues can be gnomes both, so moot point. But the poisoncrafting advantage is working whatever your race.

As you can see, each class has its advantages over others. I don't envy rogues advantages I listed there. It's perfectly fine. You should do the same imo.

A rogues do fine in the group game. They do need some work in specific raid scenarios, but this isn’t the time or place for it. Both Pal and SK can but up some decent dps 2hs tanking names in short fights on a single mob (undead for pal). Any DPS class is going to have a hard time competing with HT in short fight. What you must understand is most of the knight DPS abilities have a long recast time and overall will not be able to compete long term with any DPS class.

So make sure you have decent gear and AAs and ask around to see if there’s anything you can use to improve your burn.

I haven't seen any rogue parse in this thread that couldn't be beaten by a WAR or SK that had ADPS and was trying. But that's not saying much, as there haven't been any good rogue parses posted.

SO you think these 3 things are advantages rogues have over tanks and that justifies the lowest chance of damage mitigation of any class? Let me clue you in...
1) SOS: Sorry, but SOS does not work in every zone on every mob. It is, in fact, as reliable as the perfect invisibility AA that most/all caster and hybrid classes get. Sure, a rogue can get the collects that are ground spawns with this ability... but what about drops off mobs? Sorry, the ability for my 85th level SK to tank 7 mobs without his pet or healer and my rogue dying to level 85 mobs when the rogue is 100 and has a healer is not justified by this ability.
2) Better Pulling: Rogues have 2 abilities to pull... Escape (which does not work if you have taken a dot from a spell casting mob), or Smoke traps (which only work sometimes). Unlike Feign death given to monks, SK, and Necros, these abilities aforementioned have huge reuse timers. Feign death on an SK is what, 15 second reuse timer... vs a rogue's escape ability on a 28 minute reuse timer. Not to mention, SK, Necro, and Monks also have AA feign death AND either an ability or spell.
3) Max Artisan's Prize: Yea we have poison crafting and it does have less recipies. But those recipies are expensive and the componants are, at best, rare. I went to make Myrmidon's sloth with my 101 rogue and his maxed out poison skill... the trivial on that poison which is usable at level 100, is 458... the tainted oleander from which it is made (at the level 100 level), drops off level 105 mobs. The next lowest is the level 95 poison... and the oleander for that drops from level 100 mobs. In each case, the drop rate is extremely low. Can you buy the oleander? Sure... if it is available and if it is affordable.
Also, none of these abilities help a rogue advance in level. A rogue's survivability outside of a group is extremely low in comparison to ALL other classes. I have been in groups where I,as a rogue, was told to just sit back and dont aggro... why? Because the SK leading the group could pull nearly every mob in the HA and not sweat killing them. Sorry, but there is nothing a rogue has that equates to them having such low damage mitigation. Now, if you want true advantages classes have:
1) SK, Pally, War: 2hb weapons with 10 times the base damage of a piercing weapon AND a delay that is nearly equal to a piercing weapon. Look at the 2hb or 2hs that drop in GMM and compare that to the rogue piercing weapon to see the difference in delay is 1. So, once a tank has haste, that 1 point of delay means nothing.
2) Tanks Mitigation: highest soft cap on AC, Highest damage mitigation interval, no soft cap from shield AC, benefit from dodge, riposte, block, shield block, and some have a Parry AA... rogues only get riposte dodge, and parry so there is a difference of 5 damage mitigation checks to rogues 3. However, block and shield block have the highest chance to proc where parry and riposte the lowest.
3) AC and HP: Tanks and hybrids start with a higher base AC and higher base HP. They gain more hp per stamina as well.
All of those attribute to survival in solo combat AND group combat. Now, I am not saying a rogue needs to match these... but when a Tank, SK, Pally, Zerker, Monk, and Beast can nearly match a Rogue's dps AND have the abilities mentioned above, then there is a definite imbalance that needs to be looked at. I am not saying a rogue should be able to solo even con mobs without difficulty... but they should be able to reliably solo mobs 3-15 levels lower than them without having to rely on being fully buffed... which does not help as much as one might think.

Rogues aren't tanks. They will never be tanks. You shouldn't be getting hit. Get behind the mob and stop trying to be a tank.

Correct, it works in all zones against 99.95% of mobs.

Escape is 2.5 minutes, and rogues are the best pullers in the game, change my mind.

I'm failing to find the pal/sk/war 2hander that is 1620dmg 20 delay, could you provide a link please?

That's what tanks do, mitigate damage, almost like it is what they are made for.

Again, that's what tanks do.

If you can't keep up dpswise with a like geared tank you are doing something wrong. If you are comparing your knifeplay with his brutal onslaught, you are doing something wrong. Push more buttons, roll your discs, don't save them for "oh sh**" moments.

1) SOS works in all zones 99.95% of the time... if AA'd to tier 2, a cost of 140 AA points. Perfected invisibility... 3 AA.
2) Escape: you are right, 2 1/2 min. I was looking at Stealthy Get away... still 2.5 minutes compared to 15 seconds with feign death and the fact that feign death is both an AA and a spell/ability.
3) Where are you finding the base damage of any weapon at 1620 damage? The best Rogue Piercing I could find is 205 base damage.
4) Why not read the rest of the post. I specifically said that I was not looking for a rogue to tank like a tank... I specifically said that there should be no reason a rogue should not be able to solo a mob 15 levels lower than the rogue without dying if the rogue is played like an average (not a raid trained expert). Even with a healer merc, there have been times my rogue was one shot by a level 96 mob before I even had time to hit any key or healer had time to heal. And no, my rogue is not in sub-par gear.

Forum Quest is not a place for reasonable parses, sir.

GMM rog dagger Love's Spike` is 162+1 dmg, 19 dly. If you'd prefer to compare weapons to the Ascending Sun Stiletto (205/19) that does not come from GMM, instead requiring Burning Lands raid wins, then your comparison requires GMM to have a 2h weapon with 2050 damage, 20 delay? Okay then, we'll go with your version. What weapon is that?

Brazen escape(up to 113) and Blinding Brilliance(up to 110) can be used for pulling too /shrug. It's not the quickest but it works.

This thread has gotten quite silly.

Read again the thread then, there has been parses posted showing the rogue beating the tank in group content. A rogue and a tank in the same group with same ADPS, the rogue beats the tank np, unless you speak of a 30 sec parse with the SK using his HT. But 30 sec parse is not standing for the majority of cases.

I said better pulling than a warrior or a paladin. Read again.

Tanks cannot block, block is the parry equivalent for monks. Shield block having highest chance to proc than parry / riposte ? In fact, this is the contrary. Instead of posting false things, parse your tank.
Also in current content, all the avoidance skills hardly work, most mobs strikethrough your defenses, even group mob content.

No, tanks don't nearly match rog DPS. Rogue DPS is better than tank DPS by a good margin in similar ADPS situations . Once again, if you don't manage to beat tanks in 99 % of the parses situations, then you need to learn on how to play better your rogue.
There is no inbalance. Tanks take hits better than you, and you DPS better than tanks.
All is fine.

Rogues will beat tanks on combined parses on single pull mobs all day long if they are both good in my experience. Things start change if the tank pulls (more engage time) and changes significantly with multiples.

You will be hard pressed to beat a tank in a dps mode of they are only bringing in mobs in groups of 4+. It does come at the cost of healer being unable to dps usually (so some portion of the dps is at the healers dps expense though many healers don't dps so... Its a variable).

Rakes rampage isn't available often enough to counteract continual mob swarm pulls for the tanks to achieve their damage output. But the fast and multiple disc options means that a rogue will win in a continual single target setting.

The issue in my opinion is the lack of ae damage potential for all dps classes. But every time they address it the end result is always a nerf to pretty much everyone. In TBM all the melee AE dps discs were neutered because people could hit at least 1.2 million dps (that is a number I remember hitting with my monk on raids). Reducing the rampage timers to 3 minutes and fixing caster AE's would totally change the appearance of balance.

Also I do think non tank survival could use a second look versus content.

Yes, its true. Warriors are crazy DPS and extremely versatile. They don't need to have any fancy pulling or CC methods, they just lay waste to everything (no need to fd, mez, root...just kill it). Its like GOD mode when playing with a warrior in the group. I wish I would of have known that years ago, I'd of put the effort into making and running one as my main. They had some tough times years ago, and don't get me wrong the ones I play with are max everything so not saying a group geared tank can do what they can, but had I put the same effort as I have into my class - I feel I would be able to do a lot more in this game at its current rate - a lot faster.
End game warrior > than any class currently for sure..imo

There's no need to read again. Who cares if a rogue linked a parse that was higher than some tank he was playing with? You could go out to random zones and stand next to groups and parse players, to get many tank / rogue parses and it would all be garbage information. You need to learn how to interpret data. You look at what the higher parser did and ask yourself if it's beatable, you don't blindly trust that both players were performing 1. at the peak of their classes powers and 2. trying to max their dps parse as well. I've done more dps in the posted scenario's when I've wanted to. It varies a lot, depending on whether i'm attempting specifically to min-max my own dps parse, and by the adps of my group.

Sidenote, rogues are good dps, I just felt compelled to reply to silly comment.

No. Just no. What class are you playing ? If you are a rogue, then you should beat a warrior all day long.

I don't blindly look at other parses. I compare to the situations I have experienced, and I confirmed that rogues beat tanks on burn and sustained DPS, providing they have the same ADPS conditions, except very short parses with SK HT.

In other words, I was explaining why the parses here didn't prove anything, as you were claiming.