Rogues in early TLP - Should they be changed?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Arclyte, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Arclyte Augur

    (I'd like to preface this by saying that I'm kind of torn about buffing any class. EQ, especially classic, is already too easy and monsters/dungeons should be more dangerous IMO. That said, rogues do need some love.)

    So I think everyone can agree that rogues are pretty bad on TLPs. I think there are a few simple ways to make them more appealing.

    1. The simplest way is to just increase their backstab damage a little. Pretty uninspired change but it gets the job done I guess.

    2. Improve poisons. I honestly can't say I've ever seen a rogue use any of their poisons. I really have no idea how many there are, or what they do, only that they're so bad they never get used. Maybe someone with more knowledge can comment. Simple poisons like a DoT, snare, slow or stat debuffs could fill a role the group may be lacking.

    3. Less likely, but maybe add new locked doors & new traps to dungeons and increase their damage / add debuffs if triggered. Right now there are basically no locked doors, and the few "traps" in the game do basically 0 damage. Would add purpose to a rogue, but would probably have the side effect of annoying non-rogues.

    Anyway just a few ideas to help out the sadists rolling rogues. Is there a point in future expacs that make rogues more desired?
  2. Thewiz Augur

    It shouldn't be too difficult to just ramp up their DPS by a certain amount.
  3. Aaramis Augur

    * Revert backstab to the old option of making it front-usable as an extra attack. This will add an extra attack at lower levels.
    Once Chaotic Stab AA is purchased, this becomes a backstab as per the AA.

    * Bring back Assassinate / Anatomy to be in line with Headshot. It's silly that on servers such as Agnarr, Rangers get Headshot but Rogues don't get Anatomy. Huge oversight.

    * Adjusting poisons would be great, but I wager they would need a serious overhaul. Simply just bring back the purchasable poisons once PoK is unlocked, but tone them down a bit. They are way too strong, yet the poisonmaking ones are way too weak. Middle ground ftw.

    These alone would be enough I think.
  4. jiri_ Augur

    AAs and poisons in PoK don't fix the problem. Most TLPs have major population falloffs after PoP, and they have bleed all the way from Velious. So whatever DPG does, if they should do anything, should be aimed at Classic + Kunark. Aramis I think has the best idea of giving Backstab back its frontal attack functionality. That helps rogues in solo and funky group situations, which are much more common in early EQ. It doesn't make them significantly more powerful at the top end; the grind just gets a little bit easier.

    The issue with poison is that it turns money into damage. That's nice when it's a mature server and everyone has access to throwaway money; it doesn't help the rogues actually get to that point, though.
  5. Chopsuey Lorekeeper

    They need to fix the ratios on piercers to start. Maybe add more backstab mod to them as well. They definitely need a dps boost one way or another. They offer nothing else.
  6. jiri_ Augur

    Yeah, I think I posted that somewhere else - looking at the rogue-specific piercers in Classic and Kunark and changing them from low-damage-low-delay to a more valuable mixture.
  7. Ootax Augur

    The easiest way would probably be to make a rogue only aug that does +dmg or something.They did melee augs before so doing this would be simple and wouldn't effect the live servers.
    Thewiz and Accipiter like this.
  8. Roxas MM Elder

    rogues dont need fixing, a TLP server is more then the first 3 expansions. you should try it.
    Genoane likes this.
  9. Aaramis Augur

    I don't think anyone is arguing that.
    The issue is the first couple of expansions, right up to and including PoP (check the Rogue population of Agnarr sometime...).

    Hence the title of Rogues "in early TLP".
  10. Aenu Holysight Augur

    yes, they should (response to title)
  11. jiri_ Augur

    So should like 90% of the population that starts on these servers.
  12. Bobbybick Augur

    Rogues are "fine" the problem is that at least 2-3 other DPS classes in the early eras provide better/similar DPS than them while offering other utility. Unfortunately you can't directly call for class nerfs on these forums so I'll leave it at that.

    Piercer ratios are absolutely trash though, compared to other 1handed options, on that I agree wholeheartedly. This is a remnant of when Backstab damage wasn't unlinked from the DMG so piercing weapons were intentionally kept low dmg to prevent crazy backstabs. Now that backstab is it's own stat on a weapon, their base DMG/DLY could use adjustment (this is true from like Classic->TSS or about 10 expansions so it will never happen).
  13. Aaramis Augur

    We all know that classes aren't balanced in early EQ. Not by a long shot.
    But that doesn't make it any less frustrating of course.

    When people argue "why play a Rogue when I can play X", I don't have an argument. And that sucks hard.

    Better piercers could help though.
  14. Kodachi New Member

    I think the best thing they could do with rogues is just disable em on TLPs so nobody is tricked into thinking that playing one is a good idea.
  15. Maneuvre Elder

    "Back in my day" ... when corpse runs were a thing the rogue was the go to for dragging corpses out of the kill zone after a wipe. Scouting ability? Unparalleled. Some of the best early pullers if played right. Ever seen a rogue split a pull using sneak/hide? Its legit. Plus their lockpicks were handy for groups in zones like befallen, old seb, etc. Utility is there, just not when you get a rogue alt playing.

    Yeah they are chopped liver during classic. But the incentive for sticking it out is that the rogue epic is one of the easier epic 1.0s to get. With that baby you shoot right up the parse during raids and are always welcomed in PUGs.

    If the pain and suffering wasn't miserable during classic+, then everyone would be a rogue (look at WOW, too many rogues imo). I can always tell a Rogue alt from a Main Rogue too. Respect to the Rogue Mains, you are the most interesting class imo. Maybe I'm biased after having mained 4 rogues on 1 original PVP server, 1 Live PVP server, and 2 TLPs. I know, shame on me right?

    But to answer the OP's question, should they be changed? No. Rogue community is one of the smallest but best tight-knit communities on EQ. Keep it that way. Reference "thesafehouse" :cool:
  16. Jaenisch Elder

    Short answer to all this pointless debate. No.
    Maneuvre likes this.
  17. Skuz Augur

    Wow, such a well-argued & thoughtfully reasoned response :rolleyes:

    Rogues do need some help in the early game, they didn't massively benefit from later game changes like Monks did, they do catch up eventually.

    All depends on the team seeing the value of making some low end tweaks to redress the balance somewhat, on TLP the situation is worse than it was on live since most classes that can melee saw some improvements, Monks gained a huge amount of benefit from this while the other melee saw more modest gains, Rogues however which have much of their dps tied to their backstab ability saw the least gain from these so in relative terms fell behind in damage compared to their peers, some re-tuning of the itemisation is the VERY hard way to tackle this, and would require an absolutely huge amount of work to get right.

    A tweak to their low level skills that tapers off as they catch up would improve the lower end of the game for them but will itself be difficult to get right - that would certainly appear at first glance to be a much lower work solution than messing around with the itemisation.
  18. jiri_ Augur

    What about a discipline or free AA that shares a timer with something important in the 60-70 range? Something usable in group or solo settings, but very quickly made obsolete in Luclin or PoP or beyond. That might be an easier method than re-itemization, and wouldn't require a money drain like Rog-only augs.
  19. Skuz Augur

    I think that's a very good suggestion.

    I think itemisation changes to the weapon damage as have been called for by others earlier in this thread would be the "proper & right" way to go about it, especially in light of the separation of backstab & normal weapon damage components but it's just the most long-winded & dev time heavy solution, your idea sounds like a very workable fix.
  20. Zansobar Augur

    Rogues need damage buffed big time and monks need damage reduced by a good amount. That would bring "some" sanity to the ranking of melee damage in the most played era of TLPs.

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