Rogue Raid Burn - TDS+

Discussion in 'Melee' started by mmofosho, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. ~Mills~ Augur


    But this is far from the biggest issue needing to be addressed. All of the below should have been considered or fixed before just flat out boosting burst and sustained for melee.

    Recast times for full burn between classes is pretty nuts. Some classes can fully burn like every 10 minutes other classes have to wait 20 or 30 minutes to fully burn, they have to make choices as to when and where to use stuff while others don't.

    Event durations, despite the key to winning most raids being burst the overall event duration heavily favors certain classes when it comes to parsing making people complain about the gap in overall total damage done. Despite that sustained fluff basically not being useful in the other 85% of the game and coming at a cost in some cases. There should have been a few true burn events without scripts that fubar burst classes in some cases extending the duration out of burst.

    Event scripts impacting melee dps two or three times more than caster dps.

    Adps for dps classes. Casters gain quite a bit from adps these days but it still tops out around 15-35% verse melee typically seeing 25-50% meaning anytime you are missing some, all or have poorly played adps melee are again penalized more compared to casters.

    Adps durations, the big caster stuff all lasts quite awhile or is indefinite while a lot of the big stuff for melee is 30 sec in duration. Leading to a few seconds of poor sync drastically impacting melee verse not being as big a deal for casters. This is even further impacted when a script impacts melee during this short adps cycle.

    Then I would say the class or archtype situational stuff. Limited AE use. Self roots and binds. Guild strats that impact certain classes more than others. Self injury for some classes is limited use at times. Ramp up times. Spell swaps. Debuff caps. Mob positioning. On and on.

    The sweeping boost to melee like was done ignored most or all of this so when anyone one of these factors goes away or is reduced then some classes are going to make out even moreso.
  2. Sancus Augur

    My apologies :oops:
  3. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    From what I've played of my rogue in Arx (I am a newb at best at it)... Most events are rogue "unfriendly" Nomia has the Ice dd, Vitio, Tita, and her ghost have their rear in the corner for most raids, vitio makes melee run away and have to run all the way back to do dmg, where as a caster can run to the door and cast with much less issues and they can stop in the middle of the room to cast. The only reprisal is Lanys, but even then, the spark workers bounce all over the place and are hard to melee. I hope the next campaign is a bit more friendly to rogues. It has only been a week since the patch, but so far, I've not seen much of the the 400k dps that some claim. On vitio last week, our top rogue was around 160k, zerker around 260k, and wizard around 390k. It is something we'll work on, having rogues do 300k+ dps would be great. Vitio would die in about 70 seconds. The point, is with all of the running around in Arx, it is really a bad zone to get a good parse for rogues. One would have to almost sit on calix or lanys, and ignore lifescourge, spark workers, and other emotes to get a good sustained parse of what they are capable of over a lengthy fight.

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  4. Winnowyl Suffering is optional.

    Precisely. Which is why in our melee groups on raids currently, we're generally making sure that our best monks are getting the support they need. Our zerkers aren't to be discounted - we just don't have a whole lot of them. Our rogues aren't hanging out with the tank groups by any means, and when possible we get all the support we can - but on the whole, ensuring that our monks have what they need to perform well nets us a higher gain than ensuring either rogues or zerkers do. >.<

    While I do NOT think melee classes should be interchangeable (nor priests, nor tanks, nor casters) as a group, I would like to see a better balance of raids for the classes. I don't want an expansion that if you're a little short on casters one week, you're not clearing it. I don't want one that requires 5 full groups of melee. No full set of raids should be ABLE to present the back 100% of the time. There shouldn't be an expansion with 0 emote raids.

    But this current set of add and emote heavy, butt-to-wall pinning, aura-laden raids is just straight up horribad for parsing. At least ONE raid should have something like Bonecrusher or Sarenth or even General Vaxa in each expansion. Something we can ignore everything else on (except clickers on Vaxa? I don't even know) and just burn the snot out of it. There ARE emotes on Bone. Sarenth does a knockback. But those are really the closest things of late. I guess maybe the Efreeti in AH raid? Can't use the AE's on him without risking the swords, and there's an aura floating around, but at least we can burn him.

    We *need* at least one target like that, just to be able to DO a fair(ish) comparison. Casters having a limited need to move vs melee running all over makes for a bad parse. Emotes that only make a few have to move aren't TOO bad, but they're not terribly happy for making an accurate parse, either. Anything with an aura that will kill you with a quickness is not a parse fight, either.
  5. Brogett Augur

    Vitio and Tita only have rear facing you if your guild has no clue about strats. It's trivial to get these mobs showing rear arc for 90%+ of the time. Also the run emotes on vitio aren't THAT common. Most times we only get lose say 5 seconds total to it, although occasionally it's poor.

    Agreed on the other issues like horrid snares, melee slows (and no spell slow, just melee singled out for the punishment), and huge AEs/auras that turn events to range only.

    While true, some of the ADPS is much more than 10 mins so it's not a full burn every 10 min. More like 70% burn or so every 10 min perhaps. (Eg bst R.Fury is HUGE adps). I'd also say it's way more than 25-50% boost to get a synced ADPS going; it may be around +70-80% mark on burst, but much less on longer events because as you point out melee adps is strong/short compared to the weak/long of caster adps. I much prefer the latter as a balancing point really; it makes the game less extreme between high and low dps guilds for starters.

    I strongly disagree. Most events favour total damage, but burst. Sometimes burst is useful, but even then it's only a melee/wiz specific thing if it is at the START of a fight. Necros have a very powerful burst they can turn on too if the call for burn is at the end of a fight rather than the start of a fight. Really the main issue comparing necro to wiz/rog/ber etc isn't burst vs sustained but single vs many mobs.
    Sancus likes this.
  6. Slasher Augur


    You have some zerkers if that is the case.
    Fenudir likes this.
  7. ~Mills~ Augur

    Burst is always useful, sustained is not always useful. No matter how much you say otherwise this fact will not change.

    If a guild had 0 necros, since they are best sustained class and win the nights overall combined due to event durations, they could still win every single event in TDS. Because the key to almost every event is a burst dps check in some from for some period. If a guild had 0 burst classes and all necros, lets pretend there are not debuff limits, they would struggle to win a single event. Despite having the class that can win total damage when able to parse pad due to duration. So no total damage done isn't the end all be all now like you claim while sweeping burst power under the carpet for now.

    The group game is the biggest part of EQ for the overwhelming majority of the population. The group game is all burst. Burn this named, burn this trash, AE this trash or simply kill 100's of mobs in succession with each fight only lasting 10-50 seconds in total.

    The raid game was dominated by burst for over a decade. The sheer number of burst events, events that were just longer than burst or events that catered to no one but didn't allow for sustained parse padding like many "neutral" events now do. Allowed for burst classes to dominate the individual parses as well as the total overall damage for the night. Yet when this was the case you crusaded to keep other dps classes well out of arms reach citing class balance. Now you are supporting the exact opposite saying burst is only useful sometimes and thus not something you should be held to, its now total overall damage done on sustained events that matter for burst classes. So ignore all these factors that add up to a big part of any perceived difference and just give me more sustained power. So some classes should have their cake and eat it too.

    Again the real changes needed were keeping burst and sustained in their respective arenas but making sure each had equal opportunities to shine. They could have easily added 2-3 more pure tank and spank raids that lasted 60-90 seconds in duration that dropped less loot that would impact the total overall damage for the night and kept everyone happier. As well as dealing with adps issues between casters and melee, ie the impact overall and duration's. Not making melee copy the broken model that wizards follow.
  8. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

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  9. sojero One hit wonder


    That is actually only true for the very top end of EQ, the majority of eq in the mid tier, high though low, don't burst down events, they sustain through them. In my guild and almost all(there have been exceptions) guilds I have raided with sustained dps classes are usually at the top. This is mainly due to lack of adps and coordination from the mid tier, but it is still a great deal of eq population base, so yes, you can win events with sustained dps classes, I have seen it done over and over again many times. Burst just makes most things easier. Could you imagine if you could get 30+ necro to all burst at the 1 - 1.5 min mark on a raid.......drool
    Brogett likes this.
  10. ~Mills~ Augur


    But most of that is because of bad play not design. The group is burst by design, they even tried to slow it down in TDS and all it did was annoy people and delay it becoming burst until people had gotten more power gains from playing a few months. If they fixed some of the adps reliance melee have a lot of that would change but you can't tune content around bad play instead. If your guild pins a mob a certain mob someway for no reason so rogues can't bs the devs don't then tune rogues around not having a mobs back. If you guild has poor zerkers and great monks forcing you to put your adps with monks and not zerkers you don't tune zerkers around the gap seen between them being played bad and unsupported verses a good monk being supported. You don't tune burst dps classes around sustained events. You don't tune certain archtypes while they are crippled from event mechanics, scripts and durations that are unfriendly to them.

    You still need certain requirements for sustained to be valuable. Burst is always valuable even if its not the star of the show at times.

    Only in EQ can someone honestly claim its good balance for the following:

    2 classes who can AE in some situations for 600-700k or more dps.
    Who can also single target burst for 400-500k dps on demand, matched by only 1 other class.
    Who can also single target sustain for around 200k dps out to 4 mintues duration, matched by only 2 other classes.

    Pretty sure everyone wants to follow this model now.
  11. sojero One hit wonder

    Would you not call swift dots the same thing for necro/shm to get them more desirable in groups as making melee more sustain friendly for groups and raids?

    I think you are purposely or somehow missing the point that every class has the ability to burst and sustain, just at different times and with different requirements.

    Necro have burst too, and its impressive, just maybe not as impressive as others, and takes a bit longer to set up. They make up by the lack of a higher burst by their sustain being so much more than the rest. They build up then burst then sustain for a good while, while others burst then lower quickly and their sustain goes down the longer the event is, in the end this give flavor without making any of them useless. There will be and are currently times where sustained classes shine and burst now shine.

    Yes burst has been the best for top end guilds for the longest of times, and probably always will be, but for many other guilds, their necros will always top any of the parses because none of theirs are less than the time that burst filters out to sustained.
  12. Brogett Augur

    Lol just reread that and see it's back to front! Oops. Well you know what I meant. Rear arc is easy to obtain with a proper pin. It's lazy to just shove in a corner with everyone hitting from the front.
  13. ~Mills~ Augur


    I have zero issue with melee gaining sustained. I have issue with how it was done and the amount given. Burst is on demand give it to me now dps. Not wait 45-60 seconds for me to do this and that on a single target and then look at my spike for 60 seconds after that.

    The bold is the reason for this change imo but you can't tune around poor play or bad circumstances or your break everything else. You don't make burst classes sustained classes because the middle population isn't putting the puzzle pieces together properly for whatever reason. You design burst events to be burst events by making them simple tank or spanks or by setting mob hps to a degree that you don't need every burst dps class hitting 400k for 60 seconds to make them burst. You don't make every event sustained duration to highlight one class and then tune others around that fact when the highlight comes at a cost.
  14. Brogett Augur

    Complete balderdash.

    1) AE is *extremely* rare to be doing that much, but I have said before and will happily say it again - IMO it's broken and shouldn't be there. It's not really a balancing point though due to rarity.

    2) Burst on demand. I wish! Do I just /say "I demand burst" and it happens? No. It's never that easy and it's not MY dps; probably half of it is down to bard, shaman and the beastlord. I know this because when I get a poor support group my burn is horrid and miles behind even the burn of a necro. Fact is we can burn for that periodically if conditions are perfect, but it's not particularly common.

    You also seem to be under the illusion that the "sustained classes" have no burn. They do, and it's 350-400k dps. It just doesn't happen in the first couple seconds of a fight so gamparse isn't showing it in the live display. Look at the graph of damage over time and you'll see it's still there.

    If one class does 400k for 1 min and 100 k for 1 min, are they overpowered compared to one that is 100k for 1 min and then 400k for 1 min? Those numbers aren't particularly accurate, but you get the point - it makes no difference when it occurs UNLESS the event called for it to occur at the start only or that the event is over in 1 min flat. For 90% of players, nothing falls over that quick.

    3) I can't sustain 200k for 4 min. It's not sustain. It's a long burn.

    What's the difference? Well sustain is sustain - it's something you can keep going indefinitely.
    (sustain: to keep up or keep going, as an action or process: to sustain a conversation). If you add 1 min my dps is still plummetting. A sustained class dps will also drop a bit most likely as they'll have done a burn too (we all have them), but it's far far slower decay. So while I may be high on a 2 min fight, I'm not going to be remotely high on a 8 min fight say.

    So it's not correct to use sustain in that way. You can see it in the graphs of damage over time that I've already posted. It's blatantly obvious.

    Now what DGC did was to reduce the ratio of burst over non-burst dps, making it less severe a drop. This is, IMO, a good thing and health for the game. Only 2-3 classes had such severe drops and it basically meant they were underpowered in most guilds. The change was sensible.
  15. sojero One hit wonder

    I guess my issue is there are more burst classes than sustained. Almost this entire expansion has been catered to sustained, from trash mobs in normal grouping, to raids. Every expansion had its burst and sustained mobs, prince and the 2 guys at the end of Argin hiz raid in cotf because they are still semi current, the problem is that until now they burst could still do decently, this is just a correction to that.

    I see that you dont' agree with it, but really what has it broken? Has it hurt your play style? I know it has helped a ton of peoples enjoyment of the game, mine included. How has it diminished your class in any way? We need more boosts for everyone without taking away from some one else. Basically we can all go around with this logic for days, it wont help, none of us are right or wrong, its just opinions.

    You never know, they may see an issue with your class after these changes and give you a boost somewhere. Maybe a AA that cuts your dots down to 3 ticks but allows them to do 5x dmg or something to give you burst, but takes 3x more mana per dot.

    Basically quit trying to bring yourself down or them, look at the boosts they have been given, see how it relates to your class, and if it diminishes you anywhere, ask for upgrades. I am glad to see the nerf cycle starting to get kicked to the side and people brought up to be competitive with each other.
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  16. Silentchaos Augur


    Uh, what? Where are the DPS checks in TDS?
  17. ~Mills~ Augur

    Which part as its all true? Or are we still going to pretend its not?

    You can claim its broken, you don't like it, it doesn't happen often which I agree with. However as of right now the fact still remains that its in game and in some raids 2 classes and only 2 classes can AE for that much or more.

    Burst is on demand. Just because you have to time it with 2 or 3 other clicks doesn't make it any less on demand. You get on the same page with your adps and either have a hotkey telling them to fire it now or they just know your routine and you have an AT for it to start. Regardless timing 3 clicks isn't the same as clicking something and waiting 60 seconds or be required that a mob lives for a certain period of time to eventually get up to speed. There are 3 classes that can on demand single target burn for 400-500K dps from 0-60 seconds.
    There are exactly four classes that hold onto 200k for 4 minutes. 3 also burst for those insane numbers. Everyone else bursts for less and or doesn't sustain high enough to do it.


    There should be more burst events, since melee classes are typically more burst oriented. These events and sustained events should not punish melee more than casters as the norm.

    Melee should have gotten a self only form combination of War March and Aria that isn't quite as good as what melee can get from a bard. Tuned as needed so that it didn't take away from bards being needed but that filled in somewhat for those missing such help. Boosts sustained and burst for those missing support does nothing for those with it. This is a big part of middle tier issues.

    Melee should have gotten a self only form of shaman epic that wasn't as good. Put up a residue that then blocks shaman epic from being used after. And a residue from shaman epic use that blocked the personal version from being used in succession. Boosts burst and sustained for those missing it but does nothing for those with it. This is a big part of middle tiers issues.

    Melee should have gotten a self only form of beasts kolo's fury that isn't quite as good as what melee get from a beastlord. Tuned as needed so that it didn't take away from beasts being needed but that filled in somewhat for those missing such help. Put up a residue buff anytime its used blocking the beasts version or that blocks the self only version from being used if you got the beasts version. Boosts sustained and burst for those missing support and does nothing for this with it. This is a big part of middle tier issues.

    Kolo's fury, shaman epic and the self only versions might also be further watered down some but extended for longer. Making it less burst in nature and a bit more spread out.

    Then melee maybe still needed a small passive boost like was done.
  18. ~Mills~ Augur


    Someone will just point out issues with each but lets see for dps,

    Event 1 has a trash timer, clear the trash in x amount of time or fail. Some AE burn this for this reason.

    Event 2 is all about killing the mini golems fast enough or failing.

    Event 3 sucks for everyone but its all about killing trash and getting through the phases as fast as possible. Lots AE burn parts for this reason. The longer you take the bigger the strain on tanking,healing, mana and from deaths.

    Event 4 is all about handling lots of stuff while burning the trash and the 3 minis asap. Once you get to the named at the end the event is over unless you failed to much on the trash and mini's and can't recover.

    Event 5 is all about burning through the first phase of Calix and Lans. And burning the spark workers. Gord is pure parse padding as is the later parts of Calix and Lans if all the suck from event doesn't impact you to much. Far more melee unfriendly but sucks for everyone.

    Tita is won by burning trash and controlled dps on named. So gimped down it doesn't matter anymore but used to be you killed trash fast enough or got overwhelmed and died.

    Vitio has no check at all you can burn as fast as possible or take your sweet time. Its just the most burn friendly event because it can be short if the guild as a whole is fast enough dps wise. Lots of guilds or players shoot themselves in the foot on this event and still try to use it as a benchmark, its still far more unfriendly to melee.
  19. Sancus Augur

    This is one particular sustained class. I consider myself to be a sustained class (granted, less so than Necros), and I'm pretty sure at no point does Mage DPS reach 350-400k (or even over 300k).
    Brogett likes this.
  20. Random_Enchanter Augur


    Ermm you DO understand that to Hit a total of 200k DPS for 4 minutes a class needs to do 800k total damage in that time?
    That means that the class can do
    1) 800k damage in the first second followed by nothing in the next 3 minutes and 59 seconds.
    2) 500k damage in the first minute followed by 100k damage every minute there of.
    3) 50k damage in the first minute followed by 100k in the 2ed mintue, then 450k in the 3rd minute, lastly 200k in the 4th minute
    4) 200k damage every minute.

    The first example being an example of extreme burst damage (old version of mana burn come to mind)

    the second example being stereotypical of what the melee and direct damage caster DPS can do with the correct support, also known as burst.

    the third example being stereotypical example of what necromancers can do.

    the fourth example being what is called sustained.

    Move the damage done throughout the different minutes and it changes nothing. Yet all examples show 200k DPS over a 4 minute fight.

    This can be broken down into seconds and you would see
    melee DPS being fairly even with spikes when there backstab/dragon kick etc refreshes and where they hit a good DI roll.
    Direct damage casters spiking every 3-4 seconds with very little in between.
    Necro's Spiking every 6 seconds with very little in between.