Rogue Raid Burn - TDS+

Discussion in 'Melee' started by mmofosho, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Brogett Augur

    Hear hear! It maybe naive of me, but I personally think the more *genuine* data there is the better the picture becomes. That's why I prefer posting graphs rather than a single figure, as it shows the stages of the fight and gives an indication of how the dps could be higher or lower on a shorter/longer event.

    My gut feeling so far though is that monks are the ones suffering the most at the moment. I know a very skilled monk who is feeling rather dispondant given that he still can't beat the beastlords and rangers. I know how he felt, as we (rogues) were in a similar situation until recently. However it's just an AA tune away... the monks out there need to put a solid case forward if it's universally seen to be an issue across multiple guilds.
    Sheex and Winnowyl like this.
  2. Belkar_OotS Augur

    I think he got lucky because I dished him some crap for it since it isn't usually that high, but it happened! I'll ask his permission to either share it, or give him your name so he can chat about it since he is an extremely helpful sort. We have a really good necro culture in my guild so the good ones are pretty freaky awesome. Then the rest who do 1/3 of the good ones damage LOL. Now I'll have to try to remember which event and see if I can dig it from my logs.
  3. Kaliko Augur

    Us monks try to make a case but everyone needs to use the "Oh monks can tank, heal, pull and dps better than everyone" argument. Last I checked this isn't SoloQuest and moloing in end tier TDS zones isn't as easy as alot of people think it is.
  4. SneakyFast Journeyman


    Here is my latest Vitio. Had the necessary classes in my group. I am a rogue. I still have some areas to improve on as well.
  5. Zarakii Augur

    Yeah me tanking turned out reeeaaaal well on tonights raid and omg i get to reset arx1! that sure calls for half the dps other melee dps classes can do!
    Sancus likes this.
  6. Brohg Augur

    I've seen 200 & 250k on a one minute mob from the best necro I'm guilded with. I presume if that same necro got to split the effort across two mobs and 2-2.5 minutes it'd be in that range.
  7. Winnowyl Augur

    Hi Sheexy! <3

    Okay, I'm going to make a ginormous post here. Sorry! I actually went and pulled the graphs and parse reports for my last 4 Vitio raids. One of them is a 'combined' fight because I have my timeout set REALLY low, and with him being a Simon Says mob, that emote can split them. That's 3 before the changes, and 1 after. HOWEVER!!!!

    First off, my guild kills Vitio with his butt in the wall. Which lowers rogue dps all on it's own. So take that into account when looking at these. BECAUSE we kill him that way, I generally have myself moved OUT of the bard group (usually only 1 bard for the melee to fight over) and put 2 monks into the bard group. Not always, but quite often.

    Under the charts, I'm going to put the top however many were linked (I parse only myself, or I lag so bad I find out what the mob dropped 15 mins after the *next* target is down) so I have to rely on outside sources. I can pin down what classes were with me for support, but I straight up do not have the energy nor desire to go digging thru the cast by cast for these and find out how well everything was synced. Apologies. Perhaps if you really want to know and ask very nicely, I'll do it sometime AFTER I've had some sleep.

    My summation: Overall, I'm happy with the changes they made to rogues. The difference in my first parse and last parse is pretty significant - however, the difference in support classes is *also* significant.


    [Tue Aug 04 20:55:27 2015] Praetor Vitio in 337s, 440245k @1306364sdps --- #1 Necromancer 65435k@194170sdps (201961dps in 324s) --- #2 Necromancer 51200k@151928sdps (159501dps in 321s) --- #3 Necromancer pets 39646k@117643sdps (119776dps in 331s) --- #4 Ranger 25508k@75692sdps (79465dps in 321s) --- #5 Wizard pets 25029k@74271sdps (81795dps in 306s) --- #6 Necromancer 22114k@65620sdps (75474dps in 293s) --- #7 Beastlord pets 17174k@50960sdps (52199dps in 329s) --- #8 Winnowyl 16804k@49865sdps (50923dps in 330s)

    08.04.15 - Vitio - Berserker, Beastlord, Shaman, Ranger, Monk, Me


    [Mon Aug 10 19:52:58 2015] Praetor Vitio in 182s, 447076k @2456464dps --- Wizard 37589k @255708dps --- Necromancer 32477k @193315dps --- Ranger 26198k @153205dps --- Necromancer 26046k @151431dps --- Monk 23243k @132060dps --- Wizard 22745k @130717dps --- Monk 19466k @108146dps --- Magician pets 19429k @112960dps --- Necromancer 18523k @128632dps --- Ranger 17234k @105733dps --- Ranger 17072k @ 96455dps --- Beastlord 16572k @ 93628dps --- Berserker pets 15397k @86986dps --- Winnowyl 13515k @76791dps

    08.10.15 - Vitio - Berserker, Shaman, Ranger, Beastlord, Rogue, Me


    [Mon Aug 17 19:25:56 2015] Praetor Vitio in 201s, 448929k @2233479dps --- Wizard 54408k @276185dps --- Necromancer 31959k @169095dps --- Necromancer pets 29842k @153034dps --- Wizard 29034k @150435dps --- Ranger 27446k @139320dps --- Ranger pets 24264k @123796dps --- Monk 23665k @119521dps --- Monk 22781k @115640dps --- Beastlord pets 22234k @114023dps --- Winnowyl 19349k @99228dps

    08.17.15 - Vitio - Bard, Beast, Shaman, Ranger, Monk, Me
    [Tue Aug 25 19:22:51 2015] Praetor Vitio in 324s, 448011k @1382751sdps --- Wizard 62070k@(198941dps in 312s) [13.85&PCT;] --- Necromancer 39751k@(126999dps in 313s) [8.87&PCT;] --- Monk 32083k@(102831dps in 312s) [7.16&PCT;] --- Necromancer pets 28782k@(105428dps in 273s) [6.42&PCT;] --- Wizard 27869k@(116605dps in 239s) [6.22&PCT;] --- Winnowyl 26104k@(84480dps in 309s) [5.83&PCT;] --- Ranger 25924k@(81265dps in 319s) [5.79&PCT;] --- Ranger 24800k@(80258dps in 309s) [5.54&PCT;] --- Ranger 23320k@(74506dps in 313s) [5.21&PCT;] --- Rogue pets 18777k@(621 ...'
    08.25.15 - Vitio - Bard, Beast, Shaman, Ranger, Monk, Me.
  8. Zarakii Augur

    shortened to not spam.

    are your vitio burns usually this long? hows caster adps looking on your raid make ups. rogue is a class i have yet to play but one of my guild rogues did twice what i did last night and my parse was a little higher then your top 3rd monk so just curious if you guys time your epics do you hit ae disc on vitio ect

    P.S i ended up changing my burn line a little also since the "buff" not sure if rogues have needed to or not also
  9. Songsa Augur

    If your duration is not comparable you cannot compare dps as well...
    Sancus likes this.
  10. Sheex Augur

    Folks tend to be pretty obsessed with the flashy burst comparison, when a lot of the time the more meaningful # is the total damage done over the whole event. Maybe something like a Calix comparison would be worth seeing for that angle, too?
    Sancus likes this.
  11. Winnowyl Augur

    I generally wait until I see what the first emote is before I start burning. Nothing sucks like firing them up to have the first one be a emote. >.< Beyond that, ADPS coordination is handled on the group level - I'm not interested in trying to micromanage it for the entire raid. But in at least the melee groups, yes, the epics are timed, etc. Sometimes we get a late click on things, or the emotes just aren't happy for us; you can see that the times vary pretty widely in our kill time.

    That's just the last 4. We've had faster kills, certainly; I'm not sure if we've had many slower. We've been running light on the dps of late - school starting back up, vacations happening, people taking advantage of the warm weather before they get buried under 4 feet of snow - so our kills take longer than the top guilds. I'd have to dig around in my logs to check the time on the rest of them, tho I'd be willing to do that.

    I haven't changed anything about my lineup, since early in TDS when I started hitting TC first instead of FS on the Third+Fury+ TC/FS burn. Since my guild kills Vitio and Tita with their butts in the wall (that also lowers rogue dps, and if your guild gives them their back, that will account for part of the VAST difference in our rogues vs your rogues) I swapped the order to take advantage of TC's other mods when other classes fire their burn stuff at the start of the burn.

    TL;DR: We don't tank the mobs til they get bored and give us loot, but we're not slinging RoI level dps at them, either. ADPS is timed for melee, and I think for casters, but I've never been grouped with them.

    Also, what in the seven hells is wrong with that graph from the 17th? It looks stupid low, but it's because the measurements go stupid high on the left. The others look sane.
  12. Zarakii Augur

    ah you guys dont pin vitio to the corner and just have tanks rotate him when the emote to avoid rear arc? i know many things can play into a great parse and a not so great parse i hope i didnt come off as ugly in my post was just curious
  13. Winnowyl Augur

    Nah, I didn't take it as ugly at any rate. And no, unfortunately, I'm stabbing him in the ribs at best, but generally in the side of the face. I think I put that in the preface of the 'holy charts, batman!' post. If not, I intended to. When I posted this morning, I'd had 3.5 hours of sleep in the last 48. Now I've increased that total to 6.5 in the last 60 or so, so I *think* I'm a little more coherent!
    Zarakii likes this.
  14. Brogett Augur

    We don't corner pin either - we wall pin, side on. Makes it far easier IMO for the flip to handle left/right arc emotes. (It's easier for 1 player to flip mob than it is for entire raid force to move.) Gives rear arc for vast majority of fight trivially easy and push isn't a problem on side pin either. Anyway each to their own.
  15. Winnowyl Augur

    Eh, if it were up to me, he'd be either side or corner pinned. Unfortunately, I don't actually have much input or influence on that aspect. It makes me sadface without a doubt tho. I even still click my epic, which gives the boost to triple backstab - the proc is blocked by monk Two-Finger Wasp Touch.
  16. Zarakii Augur

    my bad thats actually what i ment wedging him into that wall corner
  17. Sancus Augur

    Arx 5 probably is not the best event for comparison (Spark Workers cause deaths, people are spread out so getting an accurate parse is sometimes difficult, if anyone posted an Arx 5 parse of a Necro doing 200k+ for the entire duration we'd get a long winded post from Mills why it's justified or a niche or doesn't count or something, etc).

    TDS raids suck in that they're all sustained minus Vitio... I'm hoping there's a much better variety in the raids in the upcoming campaign, and it's still interesting to look at burst (especially because we're looking at classes that are traditionally more suited for burst DPS). That said, I'm very curious to see maybe an Arx 1/2 parse (or general sustained parses). CT has an Arx 1 parse posted on our boards but the time didn't look awesome (I missed raids Sunday so hard to say how it went), so refraining from drawing conclusions from it.

    P.S. Like half my post is in parentheses :oops:
    Brogett and Winnowyl like this.
  18. Slasher Augur

    The time is long because it picked it up when it spawned. The actual time was not 452s most people on that parse only attacked for 190-213s and that is the problem with using gameparse. When you export it you get the dps people did based on when it picked up the mob instead of the dps they did from when they first attacked to when it died. Everyone but tanks on that parse has 250s added to them when they did zero damage during that time.
  19. Brogett Augur

    That's why I prefer the damage over time graphs, but that's not viable for a whole guild. What we really need is simply sliders (maybe set in the entire guild dps graph so you can judge start/end manually).

    Tita parse has other issues too. We (mostly) can't fire our AE discs when we're hitting her incase the chanters have mezzed nearby. Some guilds kill all the trash before engaging though, so it will change depending on the guild which makes things hard to compare.

    Agreed that a combined arx 1/2 would be a reasonable sustained parse. Arx 5 isn't a good parse target simply because most guilds haven't beaten it. (Ourselves, it's purely down to numbers :/)
  20. Slasher Augur

    It would not be hard for him to add an option to export true dps numbers based on your time attacking but he wont do it for some unknown reason.

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