Rogue Raid Burn - TDS+

Discussion in 'Melee' started by mmofosho, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Brogett Augur

    That doesn't help for sure, but even if I burn from 100% with perfect sync from group, I just don't get the 200k+ dps (for that duration) - it never happens. I don't think she has debuffs on at that stage, but maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to see them in the dozens of other debuffs & dots.

    As for entire encounter, my experience is otherwise. Rogues can do "OK", but we're still dominated by casters on the overall bit. Agreed if we exclude Tita then rogues do well (but the Tita bit is such a skew to casters that it makes their overall significantly ahead too).

    We haven't beaten 5, but of the 6 other events (including two one-offs) I can't think of one that it's better to be melee on than caster. It'd be interesting to see the combined whole-night parses for the top guilds where they clear everything in the same night. This will definitely skew it towards burst classes more as if you have sufficient dps to kill the entire lot in a single evening then the fights are clearly MUCH shorter than ours (favouring burst over sustained).
  2. Sancus Augur

    FWIW I do find pets are exceptionally awful on Tita. That being said, I don't have enough data from other Arx events to make a judgement as of yet. I *think* Tita is notably worse, but I can't say for certain. Figuring out the various levels of AC is something I'm hoping to do though.

    (This isn't intended to be a post whining about pet DPS, as I know melee have it much, much worse, I only mention it because it's the best metric I have as far as AC levels are concerned).
  3. Winnowyl Augur

    Unfortunately, my guild kills both Tita and Vitio with their butts stuck in the corner. My burn is /wrist on them, so I have nothing to contribute on that matter. As stated earlier, RF + TC/FS is our bread and butter; I use third spire with mine, with Mark followed by Pins. Absorbing Agent is often laid on as well. Barrage, Banestrike, and Hidden Blade are all tied to the same key, so those are my go-to spammy bits.

    I had an awesome novella typed up, but when I went looking for my charts to add, I discovered that I'd never saved them to PNG, they were still layered as pspimage. In the time it took to find, convert, and upload, this tab suspended and ate my post. So you get the abbreviated version - sorry!

    That being said, I made some charts for my guild the other day, to show how some of the buff stacking works for rogues when in a melee group on a raid. This includes a Shaman, Bard, Beastlord, Berserker, Ranger and Rogue in the group. Yes, that's not always the group. However, this is for illustrative purposes, so they (and you) can see how everything stacks up. Hopefully I don't break the internet when I link them here. And hopefully y'all don't grump at me either. =p





    Sheex, Lanadili, Brogett and 3 others like this.
  4. Winnowyl Augur

    Perhaps y'all can confirm something for me.

    I was poking thru various things, and found that our UF-RoF BP clicks actually show varying amounts of increased damage for 2hp vs 1hp, bs, 1hb, 1hs. I have no freaking clue while 2hp is on there, seeing as the only two hander I know of that we can even equip is a 2hb. But whatever, I digress.

    I just want to confirm that this damage absolutely CANNOT be focused or increased by anything we, or anyone else, may happen to click during the 10 seconds it takes us to land 100 hits.
  5. Brudal Augur

    Only abilities like funeral dirge and T'Vyl's Resolve which increase the NPC's incoming melee damage will increase Damage Bonus, other than it is just like cleave stacks or heroic strength; damage added to the end of the damage calculation.
  6. Winnowyl Augur

    Thanks! That's what I wanted to make sure of.
  7. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    Noob questions for rogues, it has been some years... with this setup, which poison? Or does it not make much of a difference?

  8. Winnowyl Augur

    I use Bite of the Shissar or Mana Poison on raids, with Mana Infusion on raids I'm fairly sure I won't die on.

    The raid poisons CAN be viable, and quite nice in fact, if you have the rogues and buff slots to run them. Unfortunately, we have enough necros on raids that we tend to get bufflocked, and can't use much of anything that applies any sort of debuff.

    I don't generally use a utility poison on raids, but if aggro is an issue, Quellious Trauma is the way to go.
  9. Sheex Augur

    For the lazies, no reason not to rock bite of the shissar on everything.

    The utility poisons tend to be a lot less raid desirable since there's a lot of raiding stacking issues with buff slots and other debuffs.

    Also... herro Winno ^ . ^
    Winnowyl likes this.
  10. Brohg Augur

    Tallon+Vallon gone out of fashion?
  11. Brogett Augur

    Slow kill so lowish overall dps, but burst is pretty high now.


    The sync wsn't ideal - bst fury arrived 35sec or so into fight, but it looks like 450k-500k dps is achievable for very short burn (ie duration of full RF+FS/TC + synced adps).
  12. Belkar_OotS Augur

    Looks like over 4 minutes you averaged out to just under 200k DPS? I'd say that is pretty dang good and very competitive to the numbers I have seen from top end wizards and necros over a similar duration.
  13. Brogett Augur

    It was top, but I don't know how the 2nd player (wiz) compares to top elsewhere or indeed what the support was like. Overall, yes it was solid. I did use 7th and glyph and had full ADPS.

    The thing to note though is the shape of the graph. Add another 2 min to it and it's looking much weaker, so swings and roundabouts as to how we compare depending on fight duration (which isn't a bad balancing point I guess).

    Edit: It was 178k dps.
  14. Belkar_OotS Augur

    I appreciate your sharing. Helps give a more well rounded view of how classes are doing in a variety of fronts. I would have expected more of a bump at the 180s mark with the second Epics/FE set but I only know rogues on a surface level though I know a few who I would consider to be contenders with the best out there.

    I pretty much always play toward total damage done, but as a monk I am hard pressed to get over 150k on a burn for any meaningful length of time. Though I have had some pretty numbers if you look at the sub 20s interval with great luck LOL. But I don't really consider monks as a strong burst class, so I am glad to get any boosts I can get these days. Sustained situations I can still show pretty well after the changes, though more average rogues and berserkers are starting to give me a solid run for my money which wasn't the case before. It used to be more of a much better than average skilled player was needed to push me in my sustained/combined element. It is nice to see that at least some melee are starting to look a little competitive with our caster counterparts though. Based on just what I have seen at my guild level it didn't seem to be that large of a boost after the recent changes. A 20-30% boost isn't that large when the gap was 200-300%.
    Brogett likes this.
  15. ~Mills~ Augur

    Hmm seems a lot like what someone was saying when this was on test. Zerkers can do the same thing. Wizards still are running around with their get out of jail free cards somehow.

    400k or greater burst classes putting out sustained class dps out until 4 minutes. That is very balanced considering how many classes can hit 400k or greater in burst. And how valuable burst dps is in every facet of the game.
  16. Sancus Augur

    Looking at the Vitio from my guild and RoI's (78 and 76 second parses respectively), in that time period Rogues/Wizards/Berserkers all looked very competitive. Obviously that's not enough data to make a conclusion, but my initial impression is those three classes looked pretty balanced relative to each other (not so much other DPS classes, but need more data) in that time frame. Not sure about how sustained is looking yet.
    Brogett likes this.
  17. Belkar_OotS Augur

    To be fair, I've also seen necros with 350K burst parses, and 80- 120k on AM 5 combined parses which often includes several deaths. That is coming from my parses so I probably missed some damage anyway due to how DoTs report. I personally haven't seen those kinds of numbers from any melee even after the patch with really good runs.

    We should try to not be hostile to people sharing real in-game information and not strongly passing judgment since every class has its strong and weak points and each class deserves some attention.
    Winnowyl, Brogett, sojero and 2 others like this.
  18. ~Mills~ Augur

    I can assure you a necro is not bursting for 350k dps. Someone gamed you or you wandering into something and didnt realize it or you are talking nonsense. To be more clear ramp up time. Long duration events are supposed to be their specialty, never mind when they can dot up two mobs at the same time for over 5 minutes duration but its not common. Since we are talking about abnormal stuff as normal should I start talking about 600-700k parses for 60 seconds of AE friendly stuff in Cotf for rogues or zerkers?

    I might be coming off as hostile but I don't mean to be I am just trying to hopefully get through to the devs about the bad choices they have made in a few cases. The issue is with these changes they made 2 more classes that are so strong in some places that it overcomes any weakness they have or their weakness is still better then most other classes best at that particular function. There is zero reason for a guild to carry more than 1 of some dps classes and every reason for a guild to stack up as many as possible of 3. Or more realistically why would any guild put some dps classes in a supported group when their ceiling is so low compared to others, further widening a gap seen.

    AC changes were good.
    Making more burst parse friendly events would be good.
    Making sure event scripts or mechanics didn't penalize melee at twice the rate of casters, good.
    A melee boost that lowered their reliance on adps making it so if they had bad, missing or no adps they were drastically helped but if they had good adps support help they were only boosted slightly. Impacting them in the group and raid game. Easier said then done I know. Would have been great. The reason I speculate this wasn't done is it didn't help TLP as much or just required to much effort. But frenzy for zerkers goes a long way, further adps help from procs or whatever for rogues and monks could have as well. Tanks I am fine with changes as is as long as they stay well behind dps.
    Wizard sustained addressed so everyone stops whining about what they can do. And a reduction at the number of pure sustained events. Would have been the best two changes in last 3 years for balance.
    Spellfire likes this.
  19. Songsa Augur

    Thx for that post.
  20. Xinj Journeyman

    Holy smokes!! Any chance that necro can share the secret to the 350k parse? I thought i was a decent necro.. Guess i'm still a nooblet.
    And i am glad wiz/rogue/zerkers are competing with each other again.

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