Rogue DPS Fading Away

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Zandas69, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. Tolzol Augur

    I can 100% see feeling the way he does about the dps complaints. He’s just going about it the wrong way. Rogues are in better shape than the rest of melee due to assassinate working on a lot of things at least. My biggest beef is not with casters doing what they can do and more so that even tanks, priests, hybrids out dps melee (at least monks and zerkers but also rogues if they don’t have any assassinatable targets on an event). I can swallow a dps class just being too powerful at their main purpose even if they are doubling my total damage like they do. It’s a lot harder to swallow classes whose main function is not dps out dpsing dps classes lol. At this stage they shouldn’t nerf anybody being so close to beta, they just need to address these issues in beta through stagnation/boosts/whatever.
    Wdor, Skuz, Astral64 and 1 other person like this.
  2. Belexes ForumQuester

    Oh, I agree with your premise wholeheartedly!

    But like you said, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. He ain't doing that. This happened on a couple of ranger threads in the past and those rangers found out some things. Rangers were not as bad as they thought when they saw some other ranger's parses. :)

    Maybe are rogues are better than what he thinks, even though I agree with what you say.

    Hard to see where someone is coming from what they post like they did. He needs to come with some data, or it is just complaining. Devs are more likely to read stuff like that instead of people girl dogging about their class.
  3. p2aa Augur

    Tanks case is not the same than priests / hybrids one.

    The big difference is that while druids / shamans / hybrids are usually in DPS groups, it's not the case for tanks, who are mostly in tanking groups.

    Tanks are doing high DPS only when they benefit from full ADPS. In tanking groups with no ADPS, it's not the case.

    In fact, the gap is large between the two scenarios, parsing in the top 10 versus parsing around the 25th spot, a gap that is much more large than it would be with priests / hybrids in the same case.

    Therefore, I've said it yet multiple times, the problem is not tank personal DPS, it's the way ADPS amplifies it. So, the solution is to reduce the stacking of ADPS on tank personal DPS tools.
  4. Tucoh Augur

  5. Sancus Augur

    This statement is true for every class in EQ, except those that are incapable of doing high DPS even with full ADPS.

    As an aside, every guild should want a Bard/Shaman for their tank groups at this point.
    Astral64 likes this.
  6. Spacemonkey555 Augur

    Your solution will create a problem, not solve one. There's no problem with shamans, druids, tanks, etc doing dps instead of tanking/healing. They're dual role, and the devs didn't give them dps spells, stances, abilities etc out of an incompetent confusion. It was very clearly intended and prevents them from logging in boredom due to horrible performance when their role is overstaffed a bit. Pure melee may be a bit behind their target imo at the moment, but that should be fixed by a pure melee boost (I'm ok with excluding fighters tho, don't really need another mage/wiz +40% situation). Nerfing tanks to make pure melee dps feel better doesn't solve the only real dps problem, the necro<->zerker gap.
    Wdor and Cadira like this.
  7. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    While I agree with the vast majority of this Stagnation is no longer a working solution because of TLP.

    Fixers need to bear that in mind & the lazy option of stagnation needs to be ruled out in lieu of properly factored solutions.
    Wdor likes this.
  8. Cadira Augur

    *Cries in Cleric*
  9. minimind The Village Idiot

    My advice to come to terms with the pendulum on DPS balance swinging:
    1. Deal as much damage as possible
    2. Don't steal aggro
    3. Stay on target
    4. Follow raid instructions and emotes
    5. Use your secondary functions wherever possible (aDPS, rescue squishier DPS as necessary)
    6. Celebrate improvement of other DPSers in your raid because they're helping you get loot
    While every raid organization is run differently, my guess is that raid leaders aren't throwing rogues, berserkers, and monks to the curb in favor of mages and necros. And if you're asked to give up your spot on a raid strictly because of your class, then maybe that raid org isn't for you. It sure as heck wouldn't be for me.

    That said, it does hurt a bit to see yourself slip down the rankings. I was top DPS or was back-and-forth with a couple of rogues in my raid org for years. That's not the case today. Necros and rogues are at the top consistently and mages are frequently ahead of me as well. I just remind myself, "Their improvement is not the same as my decline. The whole raid benefits when anyone improves."

    But then zerks get nerfed and suddenly I'm literally doing less DPS. :(
    Skuz, Wdor, Winnowyl and 1 other person like this.
  10. Maedhros High King

    Everyone saw the coming stagnation of berserkers for years, because of the heroic dex calculations.
    There were many calls with years in advance for the devs to make some changes to some of the discs, especially in regards to the ones that mostly improved crit chance which were now pretty irrelevant.
    Meanwhile people that followed along expected rogues and monks to continue to see their numbers improve while their crit chance raised with more hdex from gear and augs.
    That has absolutely happened. Rogues are easily the top melee class right now and I would put them at number 3 overall behind necros and mages but ahead of everyone else on average.
    I fully expect well played rogues and rangers to pass necros next year when everyone gets new weapons and gear with more hdex, but casters in general will slip because no new spells and very little gains to be had from weapons and gear.
    Berserkers will improve with new weapons and gain a little bit on the casters but more hdex isnt gonna help much at all so we are in for a few more years of stagnation for berserkers unless some substantial changes happen to their discs or abilities.
    minimind and Skuz like this.
  11. Tucoh Augur

    With DPG doing things like yeeting a +40% boost to base spell damage for DDs (uniformally for wizards AND mages...) last minute before ToL's release, it's hard to predict what the future will hold.

    I am tempted to change from warrior to shadowknight and swap my berserker for *something* in the next release though. Maybe ranger, mage or rogue.
    Skuz and Maedhros like this.
  12. bigpapa Augur

    some raids have adds to pop , doters or those who can ae got an edge there , as well,
  13. p2aa Augur

    Ok so which druid / shaman / hybrid can win 20 spots on the DPS ranking, going from no ADPS support in group to full ADPS support in it ? Like it can happen for warriors.

    Regarding my proposal, the problem of DPS complaining is that some raid leaders are putting tanks in DPS group replacing the DPS there, who then go in tank groups ? lol. So the idea is that this is not becoming interesting to do it anymore, hence playing on the ADPS part.
  14. Sancus Augur

    Number of ranking places is not a very good metric metric (some guilds have a far larger dispersion in DPS than others), but an unsupported Druid/Shaman absolutely can and should move up 20 ranking spots (or more) going from no ADPS to Enchanter/Bard support. DoTs have very high scaling with ADPS, and non-Necros lack a lot of self modifiers that are provided by support classes.

    Rangers, Shadow Knights, and Paladins (the latter two are hybrids and tank classes) all also see significant scaling with ADPS and should roughly be in the ballpark of each other. To the extent Bards/Beastlords see less scaling, it's because they themselves have potent melee ADPS that they're always benefiting from (non-MGBable Ranger ADPS is more limited).

    Some classes see more scaling than others with ADPS, and warriors in particular are on the higher end of the spectrum due to high autoattack melee DPS. There are other classes that also experience above-average scaling, and certainly quite a few classes that scale as much as tanks broadly do (inclusive of shadow knights/paladins).
  15. FranktheBank Augur

    Do you ask your raid leader why they do that? I do that with 1 particular warrior, because he parses better than the other dps that I would be into the same spot. Also, if there is a comparable parser, but they have 50% RA, im giving the premium group slot to the 90%+ RA.
    TsiawdMS likes this.
  16. dwish Augur

    As others have said, rogues are actually lightyears ahead of other melee as far as raid DPS, but like everyone else still far below mages/necros.
  17. Winnowyl Suffering is optional.

    Our necros spank me on a parse, and sometimes our mages do.

    But when our melee get all the adps they need, those are generally the ONLY classes that spank my rogues. Monks and zerkers come close, and pop up there sometimes. But rogues are king for US right now, as far as melee goes. At least when ~everyone~ is pushing all the buttons in the right order that night.
    Cadira likes this.
  18. kizant Augur

    If Enhanced Decay continues to be upgraded like it has been then there's no possible way anyone is catching up to necros. They'll more than likely expand their lead.
    Skuz and Sancus like this.
  19. TsiawdMS I Identify as a Melee Ranger

    Also have to consider the raid force. If you are in a force where deaths occur frequently- I'd much rather be a monk/zerker/rogue in order to get back in the fight immediately. If it's a lower dps raid force, I would expect the melee to come out ahead when other classes have run through their mana pools.
  20. Pickter New Member

    So I stumbled upon this thread only today while watching some college football and being bored. While you may say rogues are “king of the pure melee” pure melee in general is crap at the moment. Before everyone goes on rant about X expansion we play in the current game so as a rogue myself :) I’ll provide my input.

    The ceiling of a rogue is extremely clear and once you hit it you can no further outside maybe some timing things that rely on your group and in raid ADPS group to provide support. If a rogue isn’t always having some type of disc running or pushing buttons we are bad in terms of everyone else.

    Try it on a dummy but between general auto attack, running knifesplay, then running your first burn RF into FS and TC with a bit to spare for Exec there is going to be a drop off .. so you basically go from 300 to 600 to 900-1mil in that order as an example.

    Sustain is the name of game and we have a lot of useless abilities to keep up dps in my opinion.

    1. During our main burn cycle - Exec and Ragged edge are pretty useless in the grand scheme of things they are just something to push.
    2. KP saves us in sustainability cause it’s lasts 3 minutes with a 5m cooldown. After your go through the cycle what else is there to push?! Exotoxin?
    3. Related to point number #2 procs and poisons provide I guess “OK” dps but I would expect a rogue only poison would do more than 28k a proc. Also in an alliance rotation it still tops out 3.6 mil every what 1 minute?
    4. Assassinate is not the answer. Even in CoV I can still put up parse against casters and hybrids. Just by simply being better. Even dying I can get back in the groove and make top 10 against any caster
    5. Our DoTs are useless and just another key to mash.. Lance , Rend , Twisted shank may provide some level of dps but won’t make for anything.

    With all of that please give us something to supplement the gap between shammy and epic buffs while I auto attack for about a minute before I have to rotate my burns again and add something to these these useless abilities have some use.