Rogue Backstab Crits

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Charrisx, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. Charrisx Journeyman

    Since the CoTF forums were taken down I thought I should start a thread here as further attempt to get a response from a developer. Is the issue being looked into regarding the broken crits on Rogues backstab's? Brogett had said a long while back that he was in contact with a developer and said he would continue to press the issue once CoTF went live, but I haven't heard anything from a developer to confirm what the current status is on this. A little post would really be nice and at least let the Rogue community know that it's not just going to be overlooked for many more months to come. Please try to find some time in your busy schedules to post a response to this. Thank you!
  2. Nedrom Augur

    Just a guess but in ROF beta PrathunSOE broke apart 1hp 2hp skills... Could that have done this? Perhaps send him a PM?
  3. Brogett Augur

    The devs already know about this bug, but have not yet fixed it (or as far as I know had a chance to investigate it properly). It is on their list of things to do though. All we can do as rogues is try to raise the priority of it.
  4. Nedrom Augur

    All rogues do is DPS. Let's be honest with ourselves. Backstab is your primary damage dealer much like monk's flying kick. If flying kick stopped critting properly I would do more than just wait and tell my class its on a list.

    You guys have to start parsing and providing concrete evidence of the damage this but is causing. Monks are a pretty tight community and we do a lot of knowledge sharing and parsing when it comes to bugs and we got our DPS issues looked at. Maybe rogues should take us an example of what to do. Keep pushing for a fix!!
  5. Charrisx Journeyman

    Bridgett has already done the parsing to prove the issue and he had posted it on the beta forms and he explained everything in great detail for the developers. I doubt there is anything more we can do to raise the priority of this issue. I was just hoping at some point if we kept the thread going a developer would finally post regarding this issue to ease our minds. Maybe if Brogett has some time he can repost his parse results here just in case.
  6. Charrisx Journeyman

    Brogett* not Bridgett, stupid cell phone auto correct while driving on the freeway! :)
    Oxgoad likes this.
  7. Songsa Augur

    Thx for your advice but with all the respect you deserve we didnt wait for you to parse‚ give feedbacks‚ examples and obvious evidence to devs in chat‚ pms and forum posts. Now we need to wait rogues get on top of the pile of the devs attention but its not easy when some other classes whine louder.
  8. Songsa Augur

    I just got confirmation that the problem will be checked soon.
    Nedrom likes this.
  9. Nedrom Augur

    Can you repost your parse results here? Not everyone has access to the beta forums.
  10. Brogett Augur

    I don't have access either now, but I'll see what I can find when I'm not raiding.

    Basically the issue is that if a backstab is too high then it's blocked from being crits. The net effect is using certain discs can pretty much guarantee minimal crit rate as the multipliers cause crit to vanish. It didn't look like they're totally eaten, but turn up as non-crits instead. However it drastically reduces the power of backstab. (And even non-discing it's there if you look for it.)

    Easiest way to see it is to use a dedicated backstab parser than splits apart backstab, massive strike and incursion. (I have such a thing, in perl ;-)).
  11. Nedrom Augur

    Do you think it's possible something like this affects flying kick or any other special attacks?

    The reason why I ask is that I've been around long enough to know that sometimes when something is broken in one skill it has sometimes affected all of them or a select few.
  12. Songsa Augur

    Check the critical rate of fk with and without a disc that multiply the numbers‚ if its broken you should see less critical hits when discing and highest non critical pretty equal to max critical hits. This is what we see for BS.
  13. Caudyr Augur

    It's possible...but I personally still think this may be an aftereffect of them splitting backstab damage from piercing damage, or something of that sort...and just wasn't really all that relevant until you get into the more recent game where rogues are 'hitting that threshold' where backstabs no longer crit.

    Do what Songsa said, though...and you should be able to notice it if it were there, I think.

    I have my doubts this is the case for monk flying kick, though...considering some reports of FK crits/hits I've seen.
  14. Nedrom Augur

    Thanks guys
  15. Brogett Augur

    Here are a few short parses. They're not as long as I'd like, but I'm busy and can't spend all day on this (and my auto-backstab method for parse gathering seems to randomly flake out on me now, bah). Anyway it's enough to see the problem IMO.

    Note that Backstab is a tricky one as we have 3 types of backstab all labelled the same thing in the logs. I have a tool to split them, but it labels Incursion as Battery as it was written several years back. Be assured it is infact the incursion skill I'm using. So without further ado.

    Without Rogue's Fury multiplier:

    Code:
    $ tail -f eqlog_Brogett_antonius.txt > eqlog_Brogett_without_RF.txt
    ^C
     
    $ /c/jkb/eq/bs_split2.pl eqlog_Brogett_without_RF.txt
    All BS = 12944507
     
    === backstab 7743485 59.8206250728591 ===
    Normal:  703 hits, average 6095.92460881935 min 2127, max 15262
    Critical: 254 hits, average 13614.3700787402 min 3832, max 18723
    Hit rate of 91.4040113740172%
    Crit rate of 26.5412748171369%
      346 rounds
      1 per round = 0      0%
      2 per round = 0      0%
      3 per round = 346    99.99%
      4 per round = 0      0%
     
    === massive strike 4375164 33.799386875066 ===
    Normal:  201 hits, average 11359.4527363184 min 3359, max 15864
    Critical: 76 hits, average 27525.1842105263 min 6851, max 37350
     
    === battery 825858 6.37998805207491 ===
    Normal:  30 hits, average 21331.3 min 6467, max 35038
    Critical: 7 hits, average 26559.8571428571 min 20132, max 38147
     
    Total hits = 1271
    Total miss = 90
    => total hit rate of 93.3872152828802%
    With Rogue's Fury running:

    Code:
    $ tail -f eqlog_Brogett_antonius.txt > eqlog_Brogett_with_RF.txt
    ^C
     
    $ /c/jkb/eq/bs_split2.pl eqlog_Brogett_with_RF.txt
    All BS = 16259495
     
    === backstab 10314707 63.438052657847 ===
    Normal:  474 hits, average 11990.9831223629 min 3353, max 16788
    Critical: 161 hits, average 28763.8571428571 min 6836, max 46516
    Hit rate of 92.4308586718619%
    Crit rate of 25.3543307086614%
      227 rounds
      1 per round = 1      0.44%
      2 per round = 0      0%
      3 per round = 226    99.55%
      4 per round = 0      0%
     
    === massive strike 4732350 29.1051474845928 ===
    Normal:  156 hits, average 26038.6217948718 min 5879, max 33385
    Critical: 24 hits, average 27930.2083333333 min 14327, max 54008
     
    === battery 1212438 7.45679985756015 ===
    Normal:  20 hits, average 53773.6 min 13475, max 75245
    Critical: 3 hits, average 45655.3333333333 min 42802, max 47082
     
    Total hits = 838
    Total miss = 52
    => total hit rate of 94.1573033707865%

    Notice the final "battery" bits. With RF my highest Incursion critical hit is 47k whereas my highest non-crit is 75k. The multiplier for massive strike crit vs non-crit is suspect too, compared to the non-RF one.

    Now I know some will look at this and say "but it's only 3 incursion crits". Too small a sample size, yada yada. However the critical chance is also down and also the same issue can be seen with the lower but more frequent massive strikes. Consider massive strikes crits: without RF it was 27%, with RF it's 13%. Then there's the multiplier of crit to non-crit BS: without RF it's 2.4x, with RF it's 1.6x. That large a shift on both crit rates and multipliers isn't just down to small sample sizes, and I've seen it on much larger parses. It's simply that the large critical hit values have been gone.

    It's not noticable on normal backstab, somewhat noticable on massive strikes, and very noticable on incursion line. Basically the stronger the base backstab attack the more prevalent the issue is with high crits vanishing. This correlates well with the claim that high damage values are being forced into non-crit due to an artificial cap.
  16. Brogett Augur

    Another parse, this time on a 750Mb log from soloing, grouping, raiding, with and without discs and with and without support. Basically a mish-mash of everything.

    $ /c/jkb/eq/bs_split2.pl Backup/eqlog_Brogett_antonius_20131027.txt
    All BS = 807180845

    === backstab 388075952 48.077943673205 ===
    Normal: 28901 hits, average 6664.98927372755 min 144, max 60570
    Critical: 11442 hits, average 17081.8997552875 min 571, max 81571
    Hit rate of 92.0274647545046%
    Crit rate of 28.3617975857026%
    17865 rounds
    1 per round = 4000 22.39%
    2 per round = 2073 11.6%
    3 per round = 11773 65.89%
    4 per round = 19 0.1%

    === massive strike 324967722 40.2595928797096 ===
    Normal: 14866 hits, average 14137.1177855509 min 427, max 49121
    Critical: 4658 hits, average 24646.9147702877 min 778, max 115195

    === battery 94137171 11.6624634470854 ===
    Normal: 2924 hits, average 28550.6744186047 min 2747, max 100570
    Critical: 344 hits, average 30973.8343023256 min 6865, max 82809

    Total hits = 63135
    Total miss = 3495
    => total hit rate of 94.7546150382711%

    Again Incursion (battery) has weaker crit than normal and even the average crit is only barely higher than the average non-crit. The crit rate is way down vs other forms of attack too, demonstrating that issue again. Given that this is averaged across all forms of my game play it shows the effect is significant and noticable on average and not just in tightly controlled circumstances.
  17. Duhbeast Augur

    Pardon my ignorance on the rogue dps front, but could this possibly be balancing to keep your class in line with other dps, or so that you don't far surpass others, and break the dps charts? Are you noticing significant failure in dps all around for rogues, or just recently? Our rogues seem to be right up there with the monks on heavy dps available fights.
  18. Charrisx Journeyman

    Thank you again Brogett for all of your time spent addressing this critical issue for us Rogues, hopefully the dev's looking into it can get it taken care of quickly. Would also be great see a dev post on this thread letting us know what Songsa has confirmed. I know the devs are busy but they have to know we would really appreciate a response, we have been more than patient.
  19. Zahrym Augur


    Can you please disappear with your terrible anecdotal evidence and your public raid parses. 100k is not a current 'max' burn. Stop, just stop.
  20. Gladare Augur

    Secondly, rogues shouldn't be "right up there with the monks". They should be significantly above.