This part of your argument I do not agree with given that many players (customers) don't have the luxury of playing with other players. They have very interstitial sessions that last under 1 hour and adding viable mercs to their group is the only way they can be paying customers. We all need paying customers.
To my point though, a 110 rogue merc is using Bite of the Shissar Poison to maintain a constant pulse of negative hate, while a 115 cannot.
Unless I need Burn enabled I was only seeing these. Tuganna - 34 --- Pinpoint Shortcomings - 6 --- Strike of Impaired Vision - 28
Interesting. My 107 merc on Burn or Balance was doing hate reduction on multiple consecutive mobs. The cast (BotSP) happened on 1 mob and the number of procs lasted for 4 total mobs (chain pulling during the test case). Perhaps try a larger test window? Sembin - 47 --- Bite of the Shissar Poison - 1 --- Bite of the Shissar Poison Strike - 45 --- Strike of Impaired Vision - 1 Produced by GamParse v2.0.0.98 BETA ps: also possible that BotSP ability is lost after 107? What level is Tuganna?
When you are playing player Rogue class for rogue merc tuning, you are properly geared. Not all DPS classes players are properly geared, so it is totally fine that rogue merc is tuned with YOUR skill. As a below average skilled player Cleric can do better than 2 healer mercs, it is fine that a below average dps class player non-burn numbers are better than 2 rogue mercs. So YOU should tune rogue merc with YOUR numbers. It is much easier to find DPS classes than finding player healers and tanks. Average DPS classes players should do better than 2 dps mercs and should do much better during burn.
It should have been level 110. I bought it on a level 110 mage. I'll see if I have a level 100 or 105 character somewhere to test with that's on an active account.
We will continue to want players to be a better choice than mercenaries, our tuning will always go that direction. That said, some adjustment is needed. Also, if we get Bite of the Shissar back, there will be a "recovery" of some of the damage I lowered since that is also damage, not ONLY hate reduction.
Better potential sure, but better actual is subject to the skill of the player. Tune for the median makes sense with unbugged abilities on the table. Please don't ruin a cleric's ability to molo for 30 minutes on a Lesson burn, using a rogue merc, while their spouse is out running an unscheduled errand. Your short session players need viable mercs.
Because I think you're dismissing entire categories of players who rarely if ever participate with other players because of their short play sessions and similar restrictions on real life time. I object to the term "stop gap". Mercs are not a "stop gap" for that player base and never will be. They are required (for them) based on the state of game balance. I think the rogue merc is about right in terms of DPS, HP, AC, and defense once it's ability use is fixed. Just to compliment the other parses, here is the 115 rogue merc tanking greens and light blues in VoA and RoF (same data set as before) wearing Vigilant gear. /GU Tanking summary for: Kislay Level 115 | Total Melee | Damage: 2355145 | Avg hit: 6231 | Attempts: 618 | Riposted: 92/618 [14.89%] | Parried: 28/526 [5.32%] | Dodged: 22/498 [4.42%] | Defended: 142/618 [22.98%] | Missed: 98/476 [20.59%] | Hits: 378/476 [79.41%] | Real Hits: 378/378 [100%] I think the other mercs have not received a ToV tune up as the rogue merc has (that prompted all the aggro complaint threads), so afaic healers, tanks and casters are relatively broken.
I am not dismissing the players, but Mercs, by definition, ARE a stop-gap solution. They fill a needed role. I just think powering Mercs up any higher just further damages the game.
By who's definition? Did DBG officially state this at one time? I define a mercenary as one who works for currency absent of cause. Are they a really a stop-gap or a they actually an evolution in gameplay? Considering I put more hours in 3-boxing with 3 rogue mercs than I ever have previously, by far, mercs have not damaged the game at all for me. Also by keeping me moving from the moment I log in to the moment I log off, I regularly have the ability to suspend a merc and invite a player. I used to spend half my play time LFG, running zone to zone. Now I just go do what I am going to do and throw out and open invitation to anyone who wants to tag along. I think reducing the effectiveness of mercs would worsen the game, because more people would box, making less room for players. Boxes need XP, armor, augs and to be flagged, but suspending a merc has no meaningful loss. Merc clerics are unarguably a net benefit for the game. Are properly function WIZ, WAR, ROG mercs not a reasonable compromise? PS. It's not all about me getting mine. My 5 carried a returning player for their extruded black pearl, others through TOV merc tasks and I help people take down named, etc as they need it. Not only did I sacrifice DPS, I also did it to do something I myself had no need to be doing. I'm not looking for a pat on the back by any means, but don't ignore the positive players and impacts of mercs cuz rabble rabble people can't find groups.
Stop-Gap Might not have been a term we used in the design, but is an apt description. Mercenaries should not be as good as players. They never will, since the level of AI we can bring will never be as good as a reasonably trained player, but we don;t want even our "dumb" AI to be preferable. We WANT the preference to be a player. We WANT you to be out hunting with a merc, see a player Looking For Group, and invite them to replace, or supplement your mercenary. While we do understand that some players DON'T want to socialize with others, or spend the time to look for other players, we are still NOT targeting mercenaries to replace players for those players. We want them to be just BARELY adequate to help you solo (Molo), or fill in a roll you ARE having a problem filling because the appropriate players are not around or responding. We would love it if you were you're hunting, asking for X to join you to replace the mercenary you having fill that roll. It is WHY we have a exp bonus in the exp split when you have more players than mercenaries in your group, to encourage you to get players.
It is unfortunate that so many players are just, lazy (at playing, not making a moral judgement) or incompetent at playing their class. Rogue mercs are awful compared to a real rogue. Yet, they probably outdps most casual rogue players. But their dps is balanced fairly well for most level 111+ group content (sub-optimal, but works, as opposed to before, where they did so little dps you might as well pop a cleric you don't need and let your healer player dps more). Which also may point out why so many casuals complain so much about how hard the game is, they simply are that bad. Lately if feels like many aren't interested in getting better, whereas it used to be easy to help someone learn to play, now they mostly get insulted and just leave the group.
So, I did have a level 105 on the Test server I could use. It has COTF merc gear and level 8 in the melee DPS merc AA Fury of whatever. What I saw is that on Balanced the Rogue refused to DPS when tanking and it used Impaired Vision on cool down. But then on Burn it stopped using Impaired Vision but it would not stop attacking even when it tanked the whole time. Having both options makes sense to me tbh. And if the 115 mercs worked like the level 105 as far as abilities and the DPS is lowered a little bit like I think Ngreth is implying then personally I think the end result will be an improvement for most players. A 4x improvement instead of 4.5x is still pretty huge over last year. And obviously I was forcing the merc to tank to see what it would proc so the DPS here in Balanced mode does not represent what is would actually do in a normal situation. 1. Balanced Mode lv105 Brachille - 12 --- Pinpoint Deficiencies - 1 --- Strike of Impaired Vision - 11 a darkmud slave in 262s, 1.36M Damage @5.20K, 1. Brachille = 1.11M@4.28K in 259s 2. Burn Mode lv 105 Brachille - 60 --- Barrage - 1 --- Bite of the Shissar Poison - 1 --- Bite of the Shissar Poison Strike - 56 --- Jugular Hack - 1 --- Pinpoint Deficiencies - 1 a darkmud slave in 271s, 4.14M Damage @15.29K, 1. Brachille = 4.14M@15.69K in 264s
Well, given what your design goals are, in my case at least, the rogues are quite clearly working as intended presently. It's not the mercs' fault I'm headed to KorSha labs for hunter to evolve my gloves which requires EoTD, so everyone who could come either has been and doesn't want to go back or can't go because they don't have EoTD. I'll be headed to TBL soon, where the limiting factor for returning players is the AEs and for existing players that they have either completed what they want to do and have moved on or never got flagged and just skipped the expansion entirely. The barriers to people joining my groups is not that my mercs are over performing. Unlocking Essence of the Dragon and TBL up to Mearatas would have a much more positive impact on grouping than nerfing rogue merc DPS.
Thanks Kizant. I'm pretty sure my 107 also did SoIP while burning. I will do some more testing to corroborate that point. Please note (Hi Ngreth) that BotSP and Jugular Hack are both hate reducing abilities that were used in Burn stance. [44137/12607] Jugular Hack Rk. II Classes: ROG/102 Skill: Offense (Combat Skill) Endurance: 804 Target: Single Range: 50' Resist: Physical -48 Reflectable: No Trigger Spell DS: No Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 2.5m, Timer: 18 Duration: 48s+ (8 ticks), Dispelable: Yes 1: Decrease Current HP by 3266 per tick 2: Decrease Hate by 3919 per tick Text: Your jugular is gashed open!
They aren't out-performing good players as they stand right now. They are out-performing BAD players. It's just unfortunate that EQ's playerbase has an overwhelming majority of sub-par players. I group with someone's rogue ALT (group geared) all the time and she has no issues being better than the merc. Your reports of them beating players, is just bad players being bad.
You're discounting the players in the middle. There are average group geared players that will do similar DPS to a rogue merc. We see they can do 170k DPS with only enc haste. Now put them in a group with a shaman and a bard. You could make a super easy box group of Tank, Shaman, and a Bard sitting in the corner that you ignore and have your rogue mercs doing over 600k DPS combined and your group sustaining like 800k without any effort. And the mercs don't take breaks either. I'm no expert on rogues but I know group geared wizard players would have trouble maintaining 200k single target DPS in that situation considering they would be taking med breaks every 15 minutes. Besides nobody here is suggesting a major change. So what if they do 500K combined after some changes and it's 10x easier keeping them alive? That seems like a net positive to me. Right now, you need to be a good tank or spam stuns like I was doing to keep them alive. Most people right now can't get anywhere near the full potential out of them and the players that actually need them are the ones most effected. That good raid geared SK can solo everything quickly anyway.
Not trolling at all. I don't think DPS mercs contribute to the long-term health of the game. If they make them too good there's even less of an incentive for people to group. If they make them too weak then we waste Dev time just like is happening right now. The goal of the merc should be so that a single player can get something done while they wait for a group. Really only need the tank and the cleric for that. Now I'm not saying they couldn't ramp up the tank merc's DPS by a factor of 10.
