Riposte is out of control

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Maedhros, Feb 27, 2023.

  1. Allayna Augur

    An attempt to get back onto the topic of the thread you started...and because I don't claim to know it all...

    Wasn't the nerf to riposte so that it only affected your target? Wasn't the issue SKs were swarming 40+ mobs and getting riposte swings in on all of them and staying at full health?

    I guess what I'm asking, or what I'm curious about....if there is a concern about riposte strikethrough damage on your tanks...wouldn't it be better to have let's say 4 tanks in the raid tank the vast majority of the mobs, directing all the single target healing to them? As opposed to say, 8 tanks getting riposte strikethrough damage....

    Just another angle to look at I suppose.
  2. Maedhros High King

    Yea, we crapped the bed for T3 launch day and caught some bad breaks.
    Not going to make any excuses for it.
    You can look at the EGL history, ROTE has beaten every guild except ROI on at least one occasion for an expansion including RA several times and pretty sure a few times over MS when you were leading them.
    Its not like these raids are hard bro.
    We recruited heavy melee dps for years and sadly denied necro apps during the time before the dot slot increase and now that caster dps is king we are trying to play catch up.
    Maybe next year melee dps will get a boost and things will change.
  3. Nudia Augur

    Aallayna tanked three extra mobs so three of our tanks could play two bards and a necro, it helped our dps on T3.
    Ozon, Jack, Emilari and 3 others like this.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    I did some testing today. One parse with /attack on and a weapon and the other without (using snow cone).

    The goal is to show the number of attacks a mobs gets in each case. The concern is that the NPC's riposte skill, combined with their strike through, generates an inordinate number of extra swings. All else is trying to be equal during the test.

    Zone: Cobalt Scar (CoV)
    NPC: A deepwater gnasher

    Attack on with ripostes
    Time: 1055 seconds
    NPC Swings: 2348
    PC Swings : 2328

    Attack off
    Time: 1059 seconds
    NPC Swings: 1999
    PC Swings: 0

    2348 - 1999
    = 349 more swings (+17%)

    These extra attacks can produce deadly damage spikes when they hit. Think of it like buffing the NPC with 15% haste (conservatively) on average or even increased Flurry chances (those damage spikes). The harder an NPC can hit the more dangerous that spike becomes. Maybe that's all we are sensing here.
    Maedhros and Emilari like this.
  5. Allayna Augur

    Proceeds to follow it up with multiple excuses...

    I was the guild leader of MS from ROS > TOV and wasn't making the calls for TOV race, that person remains in leadership over in MS. You got a personal problem with me, take it to PMs or /ignore me. I started this being civil and simply refuting your claim that 90% increased damage from riposte is what's happening...

    Since then, you've come for me personally, not a great look for the leader of a guild, even if it is a 9th place guild.
  6. Maedhros High King

    That would be great to get back on topic.
    My position is that the more mobs you fight the more often you riposte all of the mobs and give them a chance to riposte you.
    I think this adds incoming damage compared to never riposting.
    I know that more mobs are riposting than just the one you're tanking and you can test it by tanking two mobs of dissimilar name and see the incoming damage.
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:33 2023] A violet fungus hits YOU for 36660 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:33 2023] A violet fungus hits YOU for 45922 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:33 2023] You slash a violet fungus for 87318 points of damage. (Riposte Lucky Critical)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:33 2023] You slash a violet fungus for 39735 points of damage. (Riposte Lucky Critical)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:34 2023] A vermillion fungus hits YOU for 38171 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:34 2023] A vermillion fungus hits YOU for 30419 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    [Thu Feb 16 22:06:34 2023] A vermillion fungus hits YOU for 28481 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)
    I think the more things you tank, the more the damage compounds because instead of just dealing with whatever rounds of incoming damage you'd normally receive, you are also riposting mobs that riposte you back and add to the number.
    It seems more frequent now than I ever remember seeing before.
    I am not saying a tank NEEDS to use a snowcone, I am trying to figure out a curve of how much more damage you can expect for each additional mob you add to a pile of mobs you're tanking and develop a working solution of swapping to a snowcone at X amount of mobs being tanked.
    I think every variable is worth looking at.
  7. Maedhros High King

    You've been obsessing over my posts for months dude.
    Also, in the history of ironic posts on these forums, you giving anyone advice on how to carry themselves as a guild leader is the cherry on top.
    [IMG]
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    A sure source of extra swings is the riposte of an initiated swing.

    We can measure the rate of riposted ripostes by testing with /attack off, wielding a weapon that allows the player to initiate a riposte (vs the snow cone). I haven't tested that third scenario (yet) today. It's going to be single digits percentile imho though based on 17% while swinging.
    Maedhros and Emilari like this.
  9. Allayna Augur

    There are certainly spikes in the rolling incoming dmg as can be seen below:

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    I don't know that I would attribute 90% of that to riposte strikethrough.

    I only have my own / own guild parsing to go off of though, not sure if other tanks are seeing anything different.

    When I look at a break down of my hits I see the following:

    Attempted: 4487
    Minus Hits: 2871
    Gives me the total of dodge/blocked/parried/riposte success: 1616
    Minus 7 dodges: 1609
    Minus 607 misses: 1002
    Minus 137 parries: 865
    Minus 865 riposte: 0

    For the same fight combine there are listed Strikethrough: 2644
    Hits Minus Strikethrough: 227
    Undefended listed: 227

    My math comes up with 92% of total hits are strikethrough. Which isn't a 100% like years past.

    When you take that strikethrough from the total attempts it drops down to 58.9%.

    When you take the successful defends out of the total attempts you get 36% miss/dodge/parry/block/successful riposte.

    When you take the undefended you get 5%.

    5% + 36% + 58.9% = 99.9% due to rounding on calculations.

    What's the point? Strikethrough on raids used to be 100%, now with increasing heroics, it isn't.

    I was hit roughly 64% of the attempts on me for a raid night.
    Emilari likes this.
  10. Wulfhere Augur

    Attack off with ripostes
    Time: 1060 seconds
    NPC Swings: 2336
    PC Swings : 440 (ripostes)

    2336 - 1999
    = 337 more swings (+16%)

    337 / 440
    = maybe confirms NPC 75% strikethrough chance

    From this I conclude that /attack on or off matters not (because of PC strikethrough?). Perhaps most if not all the extra NPC swings are riposted riposte swings? Is that the right conclusion to draw?
  11. tsiawdroi TittyGOAT


    IS that a lot of nerd math to explain heroic agility is the way to go now?

    In all seriousness, with strikethrough not being 100%; I would like to see a comparison between hsta, hagi, hdex, and balanced. Mainly interested in seeing what one does vs other at the 2800- 3200- 3600 values.
  12. Allayna Augur

    well, you have hdex, in that parse above.
  13. Wulfhere Augur

    and the 607 misses too right? So defended is really only 1009.

    HAgi is 607 misses + 7 dodges = 614
    HDex is 865 ripostes + 137 parries = 1002
  14. Ozon Augur


    It was us and TotC, right around TSS Frostcrypt was probably the final nail in the coffin. At the time TotC could proc off any target you riposted, and since FC was pretty much autoaggro. The process was to solo a mob at entrance get Mortal Coil running, find a corner in the first room, back in then AFK, with attack on. It took some time to get it right but once you got it going it was dead simple. The nerf was appropriate in hind sight, sucked at the time, and caused a number of high end SKs to retire.
  15. tsiawdroi TittyGOAT

    I thought it was due to drogbaa in eok?
  16. Denyu Lorekeeper


    You're thinking of when they added Mortal Residue to keep us from leeching forever and just AFKing in a corner. Any totc proc changes were very minor to the whole process for SKs until they added the heal cap. CotF had a brief period where we had hit counters on all leeches as well, but the main riposte nerfs were due to the shenanigans possible after getting proficiencies and Innate Darkblade.
    Ozon likes this.
  17. Derka Power Ranger

    This was the real mass killing change patch:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/game-update-notes-february-19-2014.208298/
    The one that nerfed beam PLing and forever changed headshot. The next real whammy was probably Mortal Coil in EoK after the infamous Drogba video in FM. I don't know a lot about SKs but I remember the game changes.
  18. Tucoh Augur

    I might be misunderstanding, so let me summarize your findings here and you can tell me if I'm wrong. You tested three configurations and found that when using a snowcone you received fewer swings from a mob than with a weapon and attack off, such that over those ~1060 seconds:
    • Weapon equipped, attack on: 2348 NPC swings over 1055 seconds
    • Weapon equipped, attack off: 2336 NPC swings over 1060 seconds
    • Snowcone equipped, attack off: 1999 NPC swings over 1059 seconds
    For your weapon equipped, attack off parses, what are you seeing happens when a mob swings at you and you riposte? I'm guessing you get hit with the initial swing + another swing consistently enough that you saw an increase of ~15% NPC swings?
    Wulfhere likes this.
  19. Tucoh Augur

    I'm interested in seeing if there's anything to this potential riposte bug increasing NPC weapon swings or if hAGI/hSTA has a new and improved value over hDEX, but at the end of the day, hDEX gang for life. Being able to turtle up and do DPS is something kinda rare in MMOs and shouldn't be neglected!
  20. Wulfhere Augur

    This is from the /attack off, weapon equipped fight. I see that some sequences span the 1 second boundary!

    I do have /loginterval 1 setting but this is still unexpected and distorts log interpretation. If these timestamps are really true then the combat loop as been time sliced over 2 seconds. (I can imagine doing this to reduce server load.) For example:

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher is pierced by YOUR thorns for 465 points of non-melee damage.
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher bites YOU for 27674 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher is pierced by YOUR thorns for 465 points of non-melee damage.
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher bites YOU for 35608 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:19 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU riposte! (Strikethrough)
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher is pierced by YOUR thorns for 465 points of non-melee damage.
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher bites YOU for 34021 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher is pierced by YOUR thorns for 465 points of non-melee damage.
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher bites YOU for 13393 points of damage. (Strikethrough)

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] You bash a deepwater gnasher for 7691 points of damage. (Riposte)
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] You slash a deepwater gnasher for 7051 points of damage. (Riposte)

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!

    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] A deepwater gnasher tries to bite YOU, but YOU riposte!
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] You bash a deepwater gnasher for 7211 points of damage. (Riposte)
    [Mon Mar 06 15:47:20 2023] You slash a deepwater gnasher for 39410 points of damage. (Riposte Critical)