Riposte Change

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Venalin, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Venalin Journeyman

    Boy, not being able to riposte if a mob misses sure is fun!

    Quick demonstration in video form below. There goes farming low level mobs efficiently for any reason.

    Vimeo Link

    Low level mobs aside, two other things I noticed -

    1. Upon trying to burn a lesson I was shocked to find that my damage while "swarming" (I say "swarming" because we can't swarm anymore after nerfageddon 1.0. New "swarming" is simply healing off of lich on your main target, while other mobs take dmg from riposte) had dropped to somewhere around 30-50% of what it was previously. Going through logs, my dps on pulls of 20-30 mobs would average in the 50-60k range. Now post-changes, my dps on these pulls had dropped to 20-30k. (Level 95 SK pulling mobs in Kaesora Library, mob level 81-84)
    2. I am wearing the shawl 2.0 in this video. Previously when facing grey mobs like this, I would always have my rune up due to dodging these mobs attacks. However in my video post-changes, I see one proc happening the entire time I was messing around with these mobs, according to logs.
    Tutankamen likes this.
  2. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    So … you are having difficulties because you don't want to target mobs and hit attack … and you think killing 20-30 level 81-84 mobs while xping at level 95 is a good thing.

    I just want to make sure I understand you completely.

    Is there an example of current content for you where this change makes a real difference?
    Cadira likes this.
  3. Warpeace Augur

    Let me go find that tiny violin.
    Graves and Cadira like this.
  4. Mithra Augur

    You're still going to get double the AA per lesson burn that a solo 95 Rogue would in Kaesora.
  5. Bigstomp Augur

    In modern content whatever difference there is needs a parser and a statistician to sort out. Not a big difference at all.

    In ancient content, i expected that.

    Farming ancient stuff will require you to press some buttons instead of just run around and riposte to death by accident.
  6. Raivene Lorekeeper

    GMM comes to mind... where you usually tank 2+ mobs. The fights last way longer... you take more damage anytime you tank more than one mob at a time, go through proc potions considerably faster etc.

    The other thing here is melee damage, theoretically, is scaled off war dps. Our dps for the entire history of the game has included the un-nerfed riposte damage. This is true for knights too. This doesn't affect non tanking melee nearly as bad. Rangers and Beastlords have riposte as well but the typical roll those classes play both in group and in raid means it does not impact them nearly as much. If the above DPS rates are accurate then that's a pretty decent chunk of DPS in groups that just basically went poof with nothing to replace it. Damage riposte disciplines are now virtually worthless. Our base agro is also significantly decreased, we don't swing as much and we lose all that dps which directly translates to agro building and maintaining throughout the encounter. So everyone is affected by the agro portion of this nerf. Be prepared to back off your nuking DPS cause the tank just isn't going to have the same hate built up as before. The list goes on from there... I don't think we have totally figured out what all of the net effects of this are.

    I am guessing this actually affects mage, necro and Beastlord pets used as the group tank, though I have no idea how much it affects their dps.

    Out DPS output as the tank is significantly lower across the board. This hurts us in the group and moloing type activities even if we are just doing one mob at a time. The tank, of whatever class, as long as they have riposte

    The flip side to this though is a benefit in the raid side. It does look like this change was applied to the mobs as well. Which means tanking big bads like reparm etc just got a whole lot easier. Our (tanks) dps while tanking is generally not even considered, it's our ability to take damage there, and if their riposte is nerfed too then tanking in raid situations got a boost from this.

    So significant net loss in grouping and moloing activities and potentially huge gains in the raid game.
  7. Raivene Lorekeeper

    One more thing the majority of our agro generation in multi mob scenarios on the mobs we are not tanking typically comes from riposte. That agro is now reduced and I have noticed mobs going for the cleric merc a lot more frequently. There are somethings we can do to make that better... but those things have consequence as well. Those abilities have cool downs the rune procs can be used but can have unintended consequence as well. And all but AETaunt for warriors does damage (whirlwind blade series, rampage etc) and those can't be typically used in crowd control situations. So we won't build as much agro on the mobs we are not directly tanking as well.
    keeney and Akrom like this.
  8. p2aa Augur

    At first I thought you were playing a warrior on TLP, until I saw you speak of General Reparm. I'm pretty surprised by some of your claim there.

    I express doubt about riposte producing aggro, riposte has no link with damage swing, it's a chance to return successfully a hit to a blow that would have hit you, i don't see where it has a link with swing damage aggro. But even so if it would produce some aggro, it's a tiny amount. If it impacted greatly your aggro output, then you are not using your aggro tools correctly. This will change nothing for me to maintain aggro over DPS classes. Especially that this riposte change won't impact much current content mobs, because these mobs are hitting you more than missing you, so they will still go through the process of checking other avoidance skills.

    Not significantly on current content as I explained it.

    I have not noticed that the majority of my AE aggro was coming from riposte, but from the AE aggro tools I use. Even so you would get a mob on you with your riposte hit happening once in a while, relying on it to hold aggro is also meh, because you have no control when the riposte is going to happen. And any action done by a DPS doing AE DPS will grab aggro of this mob if you only count on one riposte hit happening once in a while.
  9. Raivene Lorekeeper

    My understanding, and it could be wrong, is
  10. kyong Augur

    I had mentioned in another thread, can you now bring back procs on ripostes and life leach on extended targets ripostes. (and I'm a rogue btw)

    BTW I had to chuckle to myself thinking that the first poster pre patch killing mobs quickly with riposte vs having to target them all individually while there are dozens of misses over a much longer period may be using the same amount of processing power! :)
  11. Raivene Lorekeeper

    Bah...hit the wrong key.

    Referring to this http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Items_Aggro_Procs as one source. Melee damage generates 1 hate per 1 damage. Cut the riposte damage you cut the hate significantly. It's not a tiny amount of damage. If I hit a mob for 36k of damage I generate 36k of agro. If I no longer make that swing and therefore do no damage thats a loss of 36k agro. Maybe this is no longer the case I guess, I haven't looked at it in years. but that is absolutely what I remember and there is at least some documentation to support that. I did take a couple year break so... maybe that's not accurate anymore.

    So... cut the war dps by a third you also cut the agro of that war by the same amount. (not by a third... but by whatever amount of DPS is lost)

    I'm not even talking about the group doing AE damage. That's a different scenario and requires different tools.

    I'm not directly talking about this an agro on raid mobs... again a different tool set is used there than just the 3 or 4 abilities you will use in the typical group fight.

    As for it being a RNG thing sure... but so are the agro or rune procs. You have to look at averages.

    Yes we can ameliorate a lot of this but it still remains an issue and a mostly serious nerf.
    keeney likes this.
  12. Raivene Lorekeeper

    It might... in multi mob scenarios I guess. You are trading one issue for another.
  13. Tucoh Augur

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  14. Monkman Augur

    Swarming is fun. If I wanted to take a nap while I killed mobs one at a time I’d play on the TLP servers.
    keeney likes this.
  15. blood & gufts Augur

    I seriously doubt this change to riposte will cut down on processing power used, because mobs will live longer and thereby use more cpu power.

    What I however believe is that the purpose is something else. It is the fact that a number of people,who has said that melee got an unfair advantage over casters,by being able to run to a grey battle field and kill them effortlessly, and that I kind of agree with that it WAS a too big advantage.
  16. Raivene Lorekeeper

    I would imagine, and I am not sure about this, a caster could get a tank merc for grey content and it would have riposted them dead much the same way.
  17. Lianeb Augur

    Base Damage 1 to 1
  18. Cadira Augur

    I looked at a rough set of two parses by my sk. The two parses for tank parses from mass killing for xp in Sathir's Tomb; one before, and one after the nerf. Although all variables weren't accounted for, the long term parses that I looked at were pretty revealing. What I noticed was I was riposting about 31-33% of attacks pre nerf, and about ~25% post nerf. So about 25% less of the time. However, I noticed that my number of "misses" was way higher (as expected) and seemed to actually outnumber the loss of ripostes loss (can't remember by how much but was significant).

    So in short, almost seems like a gain in the survivability area but slightly (seriously, slightly outside of grey content) less dps.

    All those crying about agro, "massive dps loss" etc are exaggerating as per usual FQ standards. I can still riposte grey content but takes way longer (boo f'ing hoo)
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Allayna like this.
  19. Raivene Lorekeeper

    It's not just grey content... it's any content where you are tanking more than one mob. I go farm shinies in one of the tbl instances. Those are dark blue mobs. I frequently do this to refill my AAs for glyphs so those are not trivial mobs. There is a noticeable change. Doing it takes about 25% longer now. It's absolutely still doable, but you do have to adjust your approach. Pulling 3 mobs now means switching to non-2h. The mobs simply live longer and the merc healer can't quite keep up with that.

    As I recall I said the dps and agro losses were significant not massive and they are. It is significant that tanking multiple blue con exp giving mobs is now harder and takes longer. It doesn't mean we can't do almost everything we did before... but it is still a nerf in effect.

    I still don't think we're thought through all the downstream effects it has either.
  20. sojero One hit wonder


    That is not how swing agro works. Swing agro is based on the damage of the weapon plus bonus damage. Not the actual damage you do. If it was based on the actual damage you do, you would never ever be able to out agro a zerker. so if you have a say 200 dmg weapon with 100 bonus damge, every swing you do (even a miss) will give you 300 agro, not whatever actual damage you do on a successful hit.

    Also repost gives you no agro.
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