Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Millianna, Feb 14, 2018.
Actually, shaman were initially decent with dots and druids were nukers iirc.
Yep, literally what happened to us, albeit slower since we probably put out 20% of the dps ya’ll do. That many adds up with blind was unfun.
I went ahead looked up the list of names that have producer or designer credits up to Planes of Power, 86 people up to that point. I think it's safe to say no one can claim they know what the shaman classes was destined to become so many years ago...
William Trost , Ryan Elam , Daniel Enright , Jason Miller
Kevin Burns , John Buckley , William C. Fisher , John Troy
Bill Coyle , Gabriel Liberty , Javier Jimenez , David White
Sabrina Fox , Bart Rothwell , Lawrence Poe , Thomas Blair
Anthony Garcia , Matthew Titelbaum , Jason Polk , Evan Blewett
David Gilbertson , Jon-David Wiesman , Tyler Sargent , Alex Von Minden
Travis Mason , Steven Burke , Eugene Wells ,
Vu Nguyen , Daniel Enright , Marlon Barroquillo , Scott Hartsman
Ryan Palacio , Kayvan Simantob , Steven Burke ,
Matthew Yaney , Oliver J. Smith , Jeremy Ellis , David Herman
Geoffrey Zatkin , Rich Waters , Joseph Russo , Bill James
Brad McQuaid , Jeremy Albert , Kayvan Simantob , Alan Krause
Steve Clover , Ryan Barker , Oliver J. Smith , Jeff Petersen
William Trost , Paul Carrico , Thomas Wells , Jamey Ryan
Brad McQuaid , Matt Imregi , Jeffrey Butler , David Sauter
Andrew Sites , Shawn Lord , Gordon Wrinn , Shawn Lord
Mike Hutchins , Amanda Flock , Roy Eltham , Rod Humble
Sabrina Fox , Lydia Pope , W. Roger Uzun , Robert Pfister
Anthony Garcia , Ryan Barker , Steve Clover , Jason Polk
Mark Halash , Todd Schmidt ,
It's crazy to think that initially shaman dots were what, 4x more powerful than they are in the latest test patch?
This is true and would be a good template to return to.
Shaman dot efficiency has dropped a lot with all of the changes. If you look at the TDS spell Nectar of Woe RK III you will notice the steep drop in efficiency over the changes. I have calculated the damage/mana ratio for this dot from its inital release state to what it is on test now.
Initial Release 3437/1958 - 1.76
Dot Revamp 14092/15233 - 0.93
Initial Shaman Dot Changes 12658/15812 - 0.80
Changes Currently on Test 6565/15812 - 0.42
This dot now costs 8.08 times more mana to cast and does 1.91 more damage then it did on launch which doesn't seem fair for the shaman casting it and this goes for all other shaman dots and I assume druid as well.
Hasn't the efficiency change mirrored AAs and abilities that increased mana regen?
Shamans are in the same realm as necros for mana regen (not better than, but the only comparable class).
Shaman mana regen hasn't changed much since TDS and this dot was released so there should be no need for a drastic increase in mana cost.
The changes to the dots mana/ratio wise is ridiculous. They need to have the mana cost adjusted an equal amount as the damage was.
9.625d/m---42s---Polybiad Blood: 15.4k base with a 11.2k mana cost+ 18k base nuke .
14.292d/m---1m 12s---Elkikatar's Endemic: 10.6k base with 8.9k mana cost.
10.086d/m---42s---Ekron's Chill: 13.4k base with 9.3k mana cost. 15.3k nuke
7.875d/m---42s---Blood: 18k base with 16k mana cost
10.463d/m---42s---Nectar: 21k base with 25.9k mana cost. (procs a 31k base 24s)
8.936d/m---30s---Jinx: 28.3k base with 19k mana cost.
9.818d/m---54s---Curse: 25.2k base with 23.1k mana cost.
11.803d/m---1m 36s---Affliction: 13.7k base with 26.4k mana cost (procs a 23.1k base 24s)
12.978d/m---1m 24s---Breath: 16.5k base with 17.8k mana cost.
12.141d/m---1m 24s---Pandemic: 11.1k base with 12.8k mana cost.
16.875d/m---18s---Venom: 18k base with 3.2k mana cost
17.069d/m---18s---Malady: 16.5k base with 2.9k mana cost.
5.425d/m---42s___(-32%)___Blood: 12.4k base with 16k mana cost
4.965d/m---42s___(-54%)___Nectar: 9.8k base with 25.9k mana cost. (procs a 15k base 24s)
3.632d/m---30s___(-60%)___Jinx: 11.5k base with 19k mana cost.
3.558d/m---54s___(-46%)___Curse: 13.7k base with 23.1k mana cost.
4.939d/m---1m 36s___(-59%)___Affliction: 4.6k base with 26.4k mana cost (procs a 14.2k base 24s)
8.022d/m---1m 24s___(-32%)___Breath: 10.2k base with 17.8k mana cost.
8.641d/m---1m 24s___(-29%)___Pandemic: 7.9k base with 12.8k mana cost.
11.625d/m---18s___(-32%)___Venom: 12.4k base with 3.2k mana cost
10.552d/m---18s___(-38%)___Malady: 10.2k base with 2.9k mana cost.
Necro taps mana should be reduced. Too much mana cost in healing when compared to cleric's healing spell's costs.
This is just the latest in a line of many, devs need to start using "In theory this is a great thing " TM
I started my shaman like 13 years ago I guess, I'm sure there are many older than mine, and many more that are more knowledgeable in all things shaman than me.
but I chose the shaman class because he could heal some, dps some, buff some, root some, slow some, debuff some, if I wanted to do nothing but heal I would have chosen a cleric. ive always loved our versatility.
to be able to do many things, (and not be the best at any of them) but to be able to do many things fairly well.
to all the people that say a shaman should just be a cleric well, my opinion of your opinion is very low
and that's about all I'm gonna say on that matter.
I know our dot damage was still a little high, but this decrease with the same mana cost is absurd at best.
if my only contribution to getting mobs dead is trying to keep others alive because I don't have to ability to kill anything on my own I'm going to be very displeased.
and to those who say that's all a shaman is supposed to do, I could agree in a raid force where you have specialized dps classes much better equipped to do massive damage,
but in the group game I should be able to function in that capacity at a cost to mana consumption.
and I felt after the last round of shaman nerfs that's about where we were.
I'm withholding judgement at the moment on further data. not everyone raids, not everyone is geared
to the level of those putting out massive damage, and in reigning in those people, to numbers you feel are acceptable you may well be completely crippling those of us not them.
In the beginning Shaman were right up there with Necros as far as dots. Best solo class period. Things started going downhill when they nerfed Turgers in 2002 but still very fun to play. I remember all the Shaman screaming for better healing and they got it. I didn't know what they were supposed to be in 1999 but none of us did really.
I remember slowing, and chain clicking my JBB most of Kunark.
That is the core issue in a nutshell. There is a huge gulf between casual groupers/raiders and hard core players. It isn't just the power of abilities whether it is spells, discs, AA, or the gear they have. It is also the skill in maximizing the use of it all.
Tuning such things so that the hard core players are not so OP that content is trivialized yet not so challenging that it is dang near impossible for moderate/casual players.
Reduced damage potential should = reduced mana/end cost. Dev's should also look at reversing past changes that were intended to reign in dps to reflect the new changes. A little give and take to make it more acceptable.
As far as HAs go I personally think they were on the right track when they made RoF xp seriously degrade if over level 100. Level scaling HA's are a nice idea but failed in implementation beyond the max level cap of the expansion the content was created in. The risk versus the reward for going back and doing CoTF HAs at level 105 - 110 is insanely unbalanced. No one should be able to go back and grind LB content for 12 hours and gain 5 levels of experience.
Shamans were nowhere close to best solo class in the beginning. Heck, as a Bard I could kill most of a zone faster than you could run across it. Things change. Fixes for overpowered mechanics happen. Still waiting on that Bard DoT revamp!
Of course they only look at raid impact. When have they ever looked at any other aspect of the game?
All that stuff you said is True and in the end they don't care. They looked at the amount sustained and are Happy with that. For both shaman and druids. So they don't have a problem with how much you sustain they en-fact seem to think it's just about right, for this point in expansion cycle.
So they have taken the meat cleaver to the part where they did see a problem. That being the DPS of shamans and druids. If they reduce mana costs along with damage the result will be shamans and druids doing more sustained then they want. That is mostly in regards to druids but sense their doing you both shamans gets the same treatment.
This has been on the table sense the death bloom nerf way back in CotF. And as I said I'm sure the same type of thing will spread to nukes in the near future.
Shamans have 0 mana issues in a raid setting until you get over 20m. None of the events last that long. Mana isn't the thing limiting shaman sustained damage. It's the base damage of the dots, and the fact that we've only got one burn aa on a 20m timer.
That doesn't make the argument that they should reduce the mana costs on Shaman DoT's.
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