Ring of Scale Raids

Discussion in 'Raid Discussion' started by Absor, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. Ghubuk Augur

    If the ROS raids aren't comparable to the EOK raids - tier for tier - once a guild has re-attained max level, then in my mind, it is tuned in a way that is going to lose subs. The reason that I believe this is that if each successive expansion gets harder and harder even after reaching the new max level (whether that be through new levels and / or aa's), then eventually, less and less guilds can hope to be successful. If the devs can't see this, it doesn't bode well for the health of the game long term.
    Yinla likes this.
  2. Yinla Augur

    LOL The example I gave is one of truth, we do have issues with Lceanium, maybe its the double spawn bug at East, maybe we are missing something, who knows it normally goes down second try, so nothing much to worry about, but EOK T3 raids 1 & 3 go down a damn sight easier than Lceanium does.

    Where do you get I'm asking for a dev to fail at their job? I have more respect for Absor than that. If ROS isn't significantly harder than EOK T3 something is seriously wrong we wouldn't have a level increase if it wasn't going to be a lot harder. I'm am just pointing out some guilds deal with some mechanics easier than others. My guild finds T3 mechanics easier to deal with than Lceanium, in the past we have found raids easy that others found hard, and visa versa. Different raid make up and different approach it happens all the time.

    Not all guilds are stuck on Queen, the guild I'm thinking of have beaten Queen and are attempting to deal with the randomness of the roaming skelly with purple aura that kills you in seconds if you laps in concentration during the first part of the raid or lag out. Once he becomes active the raid is a doddle, that 1 mechanic is a nightmare. Sadly unless level 110 gives a shed load of extra HP to help survive that aura a few seconds longer and the lag is fixed 100%, I don't see them getting past it. I'd love to be proved wrong here. :)

    Some EOK T3 loot is going to rot they have been farming the other tiers for months and all visibles drop from all raids (I think all slots do to, but I don't pay much attention to loot), on top of that ROS is going to have near enough equivalent group gear to EOK raids.

    Just for the record I'm not asking to make Seal of Charasis obsolete, just not used for the raids before Charasis ie a requirement for T2 not T1.

    I respect your opinion, and I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I am passionate about the game I play, my guild and my server community. Its old mother hen syndrome always look after everyone. LOL I just can't be like everyone else and be "I'm alright Jack, it doesn't effect me", never know when I could be in the same situation myself.
    Long_Time_Player, Blitter and Ghubuk like this.
  3. Axxius Augur

    If the RoS raids are tuned as intended by Absor's first post, then nobody should be beating them before EoK T3, no matter the mechanics. Your very request suggests that it should be possible for one guild or another to beat RoS T1 when they are still struggling with EoK T2/3, otherwise they don't need access to it. But that would automatically mean that the devs fail at tuning.

    Your new example: the Vault. The boss walks very slowly. 1 person watching him and warning everybody when he walks your way is enough. If some guild cannot dodge that boss, that guild will also be failing the mechanics in the Overthere and Skyfire raids, at least. The same excuses will be up: randomness, lag, etc.
  4. Tanols Elder

    Wow this got derailed quick. :/ DT Aura was a nasty surprise.
  5. Long_Time_Player New Member

    There has been an 18 year precedence AND revitalization of the game that occurs with new expansions. New bottom tier raids are always available to anyone that has purchased the game and is willing to do some group content. This always revitalizes raiding guilds as they get some new content to play with which brings old players back and reinvigorates those that are getting tired.

    The proposed change for this new expansion breaks that core benefit and expectation. And it does it at a time when the game continues to decline. This seems to be a bad development decision.

    On top of that, the customer service response to requesting a refund should you have purchased RoS and then found out about this change is Daybreak gives no refunds and if you decide to cancel the charge on your credit card: "I do need to mention that you you chargeback the purchase through your credit card, the account will become banned."

    Banning customers is a strong growth incentive for the game.
    Ghubuk likes this.
  6. Natal Augur

    RoS group gear is nowhere near as good as EoK raid gear.
  7. Yinla Augur

    LOL Dev thinking has gone back a few years on this as well then. I wish they would make their minds up.

    Lets just hope the group game is tuned to group gear and not raid gear.
  8. Natal Augur

    The problem with your argument is that there is no reward for those guilds to continue raiding, since they have already been beating the earlier raids for up to a year, which means that most of the members will already be largely fully geared. No one wants to raid just to get gear for alts or guests, and eventually people will start leaving in frustration, meaning that those guilds will be permanently stuck at that point until they eventually die (my guess is that will start happening about 3 months into RoS as things currently stand)

    If the devs want those raiders to continue playing they are going to have to implement some sort of reward for them to do so. That could be in the form of additional non blocked accessible raids in RoS, or extending EoK raid currency to buy intermediate raid gear in RoS without having to do the current RoS raids.

    But they better do something, otherwise it is going to be ugly in mid-tier raiding guild land.
    Long_Time_Player likes this.
  9. Natal Augur

    Ya, I specifically had a look at that on the weekend since I don't see my guild getting through EoK tier 3 anytime vaguely soon, and wanted to see if there would at least be something else to motivate playing. For the most part, at least as far as I could tell, there is not (when it comes to gear). You can't really replace anything, even with something a little better. Unless there is something I am missing on the beta gear vendors.

    Other than a few augs, RoS is going to give me nothing new.

    I have been raiding for the better part of two decades in EQ, and this is one of the few times I have had a really pessimistic outlook for my personal future in the game. Short of leaving my current guild, which is something I never do until the guild collapses due to lack of numbers, I don't see my main toon getting much out of this expansion.

    I would guess that the reason they did not raise group gear to EoK raid levels was to ensure that EoK raids still had relevance from a reward perspective. But the problem with that of course is that the guilds stuck in EoK have already been doing it for up to a year (and more the following expansion), so they already have EoK raid gear and consequently will not be getting any rewards from that older content.
    Long_Time_Player likes this.
  10. Natal Augur

    It would be a lot longer than 6 weeks. Usually those guilds either have lower numbers, or full raids partially comprised of guests/alts, so beating those more extreme raids consistently is not a given. Six full clears will likely take months at best, and given attrition that is almost certain to occur over that time period, it is very likely that they will never have enough people flagged to start RoS raids.

    I have been in numerous raiding guilds just below elite status, and I have seen this dynamic happen time and time again. I have seen too many guilds wither away as a direct result of poor raid progression design. This is why having roadblocks in raiding sequences, especially right at the beginning, is bad design. It removes incentive to play, and in those mid tier guilds that is lethal. If a roadblock raid is placed near the end of raiding progression it is still a problem but nowhere near as bad since people would be gearing up with the raids they can do and that keeps them playing. People are much more willing to say "well, we cant beat the last 2 or 3 raids, but that is ok, we will just skip them and start the new expansion, and maybe when we are geared up we can go back and do them".

    They can't say that any more, so chances are they will just leave, either the guild or the game.
    Long_Time_Player likes this.
  11. Warpeace Augur

    Lets be honest your not describing a Mid-tier level guild by any means.
  12. Natal Augur

    And I might add, this needs to be addressed NOW. This is what beta is for, to identify problems, not only specific ones, but also the more global ones. And this IS going to be a problem if nothing is done, I guarantee it. Waiting 6 months and watching guilds die, then it will be too late to do anything to change that. There needs to be accessible relevant content for everyone right from the get go, or at least a reasonable path forward for people like me.

    I think maybe they should just autoflag everyone who has the Kunark tier 2 flags done when RoS is released, and be done with it. That would alleviate most of the issues associated with being blocked by tier 3. Perhaps give a one or two month grace period on release before autoflagging (AND MAKE THAT CLEAR FROM THE START so people don't get POed and drift off) to accommodate the egos of the hardcore raiding guilds.
    Long_Time_Player likes this.
  13. Natal Augur

    A mid tier guild is one that can do some current content, but typically does not complete the expansion in the current cycle. Usually they go back and finish older end-game raids after they have started the next expansion raids and have geared up/spelled up to some extent. They are real raiders doing hard stuff, and generally will be fully or mostly geared in current raid armor (assuming they are regular raiders of course) by the end of an expansion, even if they don't complete it.

    Hardcore top tier guilds complete all raids in the current cycle and have them on farm status when the next expansion rolls around.

    Casual guilds do raid content from two expansions back, and some early raids from the older expansion, after the new expansion rolls out. For the most part they don't get rewards for doing so, other than bragging rights. The population of those guilds tends to be unreliable, casual, with high attrition/turnover rates. Usually there is a small core of regulars who run the show, but most of their players are sporadic at best.

    Top tier and mid tier guilds are driven by personal character development. When they are in the position where most of their members no longer can develop their toons, they will start to have issues with personnel attrition and that adversely affects guild health.
    Long_Time_Player likes this.
  14. Warpeace Augur

    Yet your the white knight for participation trophies in RoS raids post after post. I'm not seeing Mid-tier guild in what your posting.
  15. Khat_Nip Augur

    What you and others are suggesting requiring only the T2 flags is nonsensical.

    A more reasonable approach (should DBG decide to even compromise at all on the issue) is to require 1 win each of the EoK T3 raids as opposed to the cumulative 18 as it currently stands.
    Personally I think they should leave it as it is now but I can't really complain if they went that route because we were going to be accumulating much more than 18 anyway by doing the events over the course of the last year.
  16. Beltirabelkira New Member

    Not to derail an already Derailed post, but based on looking around beta, shouldn't this one's Task giver be listed as "Praetor General Teralus"?
    Axxius likes this.
  17. Absor Developer

  18. Natal Augur

    It is not nonsense. Very few guilds that have not beaten Kunark tier 3 raids already are going to suddenly be able to beat them when RoS comes out. That is not unusual. In most previous expansions mid tier raiding guilds have not completed the end-game raid in the previous expansion before they start raids in the current expansion. Hell, even to this day we have not beaten Sep 5 - we could, even though it is still a complex raid - but to do so we would have to reflag most of the guild and no one could be bothered because what would be the point.

    Why does this expansion have to be different in that respect? I have yet to see any compelling argument for that. The purchase price for the expansion paid by mid-tier raiders are just as good as yours, why should you have immediate access to raids while they are not allowed to even start (for no good reason)?

    What you are advocating then is that those guilds should be locked out of meaningful raiding when RoS is released, because that is what is going to happen. They are not going to beat the end game raids of Kunark until they start getting power bumps from raid gear and spells from RoS, and the only way to get those is from doing RoS raids. How long do you think their core raiders are going to hang around when they are stuck in the previous expansion and can't raid current content as a result? This is what has happened in the past when raid content has been locked behind some sort of difficult gate event, and it is going to happen again. Do you not remember the Queen raid required to key people for the Dreadspire Keep raids? I sure as hell do. I remember struggling for months to beat that, then when we did we raided Dreadspire for a few times, then it was back to bashing our heads against queen to key new people to replace those lost to attrition. Again and again and again. We had to try to persuade people to show up and do raids that dropped gear that no one needed. That went on for at least a year, and at end of it the guild was gone. It was a year of flagging raids, over and over and over, that was all we did for the most part except for brief periods when we had enough flags. We could do Dreadspire raids - we just COULD NOT GET ENOUGH PEOPLE IN THE DAMNED ZONE because a stupid flagging requirement. What they are doing here with RoS is repeating that same mistake. And the results will be the same, mark my words. Placing current content behind very difficult flagging raids is just plain ...... in my opinion.

    Now no doubt that was not a problem for the hardcore guilds, but for the mid tier guilds it sure as hell was one. I don't think you are going to find anyone who banged their heads against queen for up to a year who thinks that gate flagging is a good idea.

    The solution is simple. Autoflag those who have their tier 2 keys done for tier 1 of RoS. Getting tier 2 keys done is easy, albeit time consuming because of the Queen raid slowing things down, even with 40 something in your raid. Getting tier 3 keys done is a completely different ball game.

    If mid-tier guilds can't handle RoS raids then they won't beat them, but at least they can try. What purpose does requiring them to first complete 18 tier 3 raids in Kunark serve? Other than to stall them, most likely until after the next expansion following RoS (if any mid tier guilds even exist at that point).

    DBG don't have to "compromise" on anything because there is nothing to compromise. There is no big principle at stake. What we are talking about is content, that we have paid for, being accessible.
    Long_Time_Player and Ghubuk like this.

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