Revisiting Dono's Solution to Loot Randomization

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Dono27, Sep 16, 2021.

  1. Dono27 Journeyman

    A month into the Velious Phase of the Great Experiment that is Mischief/Thornblade, I thought it would be worthwhile to revisit the discussion concerning the randomized loot mechanics.

    Lower Tier (easier/more available targets) are quickly becoming ignored by the larger guilds. Velketor and Wuoshi feel like a waste of time if you don't get a Dain Head.

    Furthermore, player attrition rates seem readily apparent to me, obviously this is entirely anecdotal. But from my own personal experience, the smaller guilds have abruptly hit a content wall. There is not much that they can do that is really worthwhile, and it is generally going to be this way through Luclin and PoP.

    My proposed system for the randomization of loot tables addresses both concerns. (1) It makes the broadest base of content relevant for ALL players. This decreases attrition rates. (2) It also rewards players tackling the most difficult mobs/encounters.

    Enough introduction. The system introduces loot floors - and not loot ceilings.

    Tier 1 (the most difficult, eg Vulak): A mob in Tier 1 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 1 - and only Tier 1.

    Tier 2: A mob in Tier 2 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 1 and/or Tier 2.

    Tier 3: A mob in Tier 3 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 1, Tier 2, and/or Tier 3.

    Tier 4: A mob in Tier 4 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, and/or Tier 4.

    As such, the system would weight itself. Yes, Lodizal or a PoG mini COULD drop Vulak loot, but that would probably be worse than 1/100 or roughly 1/(number of mobs in all Tiers 1, 2, 3, 4). However, Lodizal or a PoG mini is likely to drop something better than his Tier. Conversely, Vulak would NEVER drop Lodizal or PoG mini loot - never anything worse than his Tier.

    Thus, the system keeps the most mobs/content relevant to the broadest player base, including both the hardcore, large guild raiders and the more casual, small guild raiders, while still incentivizing those players who can and want to go after the most difficult mobs/encounters.
    Neceros, Venalin, Kromean and 7 others like this.
  2. Elite_raider Augur

    I have to admit I would prefer the one big bucket Kunrak had with the "average" loot table rolls being 5 to 6 loot tables per raid mob kill, you shouldn't always get the best loot on a server like this if you kill a certain mob. That said, if the dev's wants to feed in to the No Skill or Risk zerg guilds that don't understand the consequences of their suggestions, like the devs have been doing. This solution is livable. "Anything" is better then the current small buckets/narrow game we got after the amazing Kunrak expansion, Kunrak was almost perfect.
    Neceros and Dono27 like this.
  3. Dono27 Journeyman

    I think this is one of the largest challenges presented by implementing "hard" tiers or stratifications (loot floors and loot ceilings). If you don't get it exactly right, then it is very probable that a Dain Frostreaver IV type gets completely marginalized - again like every other server - even though he is a centrigal part of the lore and Velious expansion. However, he could have been made more relevant - not less relevant - by randomization. This problem, and burden, placed on the developers can be mitigated by implementing loot floors, not loot ceilings.

    Accordingly, the system had the potential to make mobs/encounters that have been periennually skipped in all other servers more worthwhile. For example, PoG is again hardly worthwhile because the PoG mini bosses are hard tied to Tier 4 - and only Tier 4. If they had the chance to drop loot from the Tiers above them, then the calculus changes and PoG becomes significantly more attractive. Again, this is for everyone from the hardcore, large guild player to the more casual, small guild player.

    The small guild player can go to PoG and can kill minis. They might get some vindi bps or lodi belts. And, they can get symbols, which are worthwhile but increasingly devalued. However, they are not going to kill anything that can drop a Dozekar Tear. So there is again a challenge to the developer of where to place Dozekar, which is not entirely a question of Dozekar's relative difficulty alone. The symbols are worthless without a Tear, and Tears are worthless without more Tears and/or Symbols.

    At the same time, PoG is arguably not worth the time of the hardcore, large guild player - yet again. As has always been the case, it takes hours to get to Tunare and the loot along the way, from the PoG minis, is not worth their time. Perhaps especially on a randomized server, Tunare is arguably not worth the squeeze.

    However, both problems could be mitigated, even if not completely fixed, by using the Tier system to implement loot floors and not ceilings. The small guild player could get a Tear to go with their Symbols, or other good loot, from content that they can manage - and has been perennially ignored. At the sam time, the large guild player gets more juice from the effort of tackling PoG and reaching Tunare - which they might otherwise ignore.
    Neceros likes this.
  4. Montag Augur

    I am in the “top” guild on mischief and I approve this idea. Yes the guild that has gotten virtually every single open world T1 target since Velious launched.

    Higher tier loot SHOULD have a chance to drop from lower tier mobs.

    Velious has gotten stale compared to kunark because it’s so similar to just a normal loot rules server under the current tier system.

    And we WANT the smaller guilds to have fun, get good loot and succeed, and they need something like this.

    Also not enough loot has been dropping since the current system went in, kunark itemization was just more plentiful, random and overall fun.

    The current system feels like a slog and not mischievous at all compared to kunark.
    Venalin, Tharvog, Aeonblade and 2 others like this.
  5. Jerakor Journeyman

    Kunark had two tiers, so I'm always confused when people say it was all one big loot pile. Kunark had the epic tier and the Dragon tier. Imagine if you were in VP and you kill Phara Dar and get Tier'Dal Chainmail Arms. That is the same as getting Worked Dragonhorn Boots off CT.

    The tiers make it so the bosses you fight feel appropriate for the loot you get. I'm willing to accept Yelinak in the top tier because it gives an easy access point for guilds trying to get to Vulak loot. I'm willing to accept Dain in the second from the bottom tier because is enables guilds to get a strong item with his head, without doing a hard encounter that mostly drops poor loot.

    As an example of mischief working, there was never a reason to kill Lord Bob on other servers, now there is. He doesn't get a ton of attention but having a couple solid items and ST keys in his loot pool is nice. He doesn't need to drop Vulak loot to be worth folks killing him.

    Lastly on the randomness. Everquest raiding has always given that feeling of "Please drop my item, please drop my item". On other servers I got to feel that one to three times a week. On this server I get to feel that feeling 10+ times a week. THAT is what the randomness of Mischief has done and I think it is what was intended. We don't need 100% gambling. We don't need a reason for top end guilds to monopolize 100% of the content. Because that is what would happen. You give a chance for Lodi to drop Vulak loot and you're gonna have 100 people popping into Iceclad a couple times a day crushing whatever box/group was farming it. Large/Top end guilds would start their day killing all the content mid tier guilds could kill to take it off the table and then end their day clearing higher end content. You would never find Dain up open world to turn in your Ring/Shawl that is for sure.
    Neceros, Duder and Bobbybick like this.
  6. YourJobNotYourLife Elder

    I'm not sure you're understanding the suggestion. Top guilds are not going to batphone Lodizal because he has a 1 in 80 chance of Vulak loot. They aren't going to 15 split Wakening Lands for a 1-2% chance of Vulak loot. There's only so much time in the day and the top OW guilds already are fatigued -- T1 is where they'll stay most of the time. Small man raids will gobble up the rest, which is fine. For those mobs in AoCs, this vastly opens up the potential for rare lucky hits for smaller guilds and friend groups.
    Venalin and Dono27 like this.
  7. Jerakor Journeyman

    Yea they will. 15 split Woushi at 1% chance each, that's a 15% chance at Vulak loot, that's about the same rate as killing Tormax, Tunare, Yelinak. For most of the top guilds a large amount of the players don't actually play the rest of the game, they literally sit around waiting for something to spawn. These guilds are high end raiding guilds because all that the people in them do is raid and if you give them even a remote reason to bother killing a target they will. Faydedar had like a 1/20 chance of dropping anything remotely interesting and that dude was on lockdown 24/7.
  8. Elite_raider Augur

    Are there epics in any other expansions except Kunrak and Omens?

    No, so one tier for all other expansions, I mean, if you deliberately want to misunderstand so that you can create your own point and argue them, well then you are not contributing anything to the conversation and just wasting everyone's time.....

    So because Lord Bob now is dropping ok items, just ignore all the other problems? I like this logic...

    Well, we know for a fact that this did not happen during the 6 days Lodi could drop Tunare loot, so we know that this is wrong from experience. When it comes to Dain, he can be spawned by the quest when needed.

    Some great points here, I hope the devs listen to you and follow your sound logic.....
  9. Jerakor Journeyman

    I called it Epic Tier because it is at the level of guilds that can only focus on epics during Kunark. It's about mob difficulty the name could be Tier * or whatever. You fell into a logic hole around my naming not the content of the grouping.

    There are no other problems, this server is in every way better than live and other TLP's. Just because you wanted something different doesn't mean those are problems.

    The first 6 days had more important targets and a lack of understanding of just how messed up the loot system was. There was not the level of downtime we have now that folks are geared.

    As for Dain spawning, that only works for the Shawl. Not the Ring.

    Lastly I want to add that this loot system is not in my mind a quirky one off thing like an April Fools. This is a better EverQuest. It is easier for the Devs once it is setup. Better for the players who get more rewards and spread out their play area. I expect moving forward to see named sharing loot more often and loot pools for expansions being split into groupings at attached to names rather than individual names having individual loot. Hopefully not every time as that breaks some lore, but from a game design perspective it is far better.
  10. Jareke Journeyman

    That's not how probability works babe.
  11. Machen New Member

    Not exactly, but it's pretty darn close when you are talking about 15 tries at a 1% chance each. 13.99% chance for at least one set of Vulak loot if I did the math right.
  12. Dono27 Journeyman

    I’m not saying anyone is going to bat phone lodizal. That isn’t the objective that I was trying to accomplish. Open world Lodizal is going to have its own issues no matter what.

    I only used Vulak as an example because he drops the best loot. If you kill something in Tier 4 and it drops anything other than a Tier 4 item, then that was probably a win - a really fun win.

    And just because people may not be any more likely to bat phone Lodizal or Dain, the proposed system still makes more content relevant and interesting for ALL PLAYERS. It also makes life easier for the devs, because there is less pressure on getting these tiers exactly right.

    Also, Dain, KT, and Yelinak are already down enough in open world. No one is relying on finding these guys up in open world to do any quest turn in.
  13. Dono27 Journeyman

    I see this as a good thing, but I feel like you’re presenting it as a bad thing. But maybe I am misunderstanding your central point.

    We have AoC. It hurts no one if the top guilds want to run 15 Wuoshi instances. That’s keeping more content relevant to a broader player base, including the large guild player and the small guild player. This is my point.

    I don’t see the downside of letting a large guild, if they want, kill 15 Wuoshis - once a week - for a 12-13% chance at Vulak loot. (Note that each player, still only has a 1/100 chance, once a week, to be present for a Wuoshi kill with Vulak loot.) On the other side of that coin, the guild has an 87-88% chance of NOT getting Vulak loot even though it killed Wuoshi 15 times. In other words, you still have a very strong probability of not getting something great.

    Like you said, people are sitting around waiting for something to spawn. This can make more content relevant. If they have nothing better to do, or if they’ve evaluated all the other opportunities and this is a better use of their time, then that’s fine and dandy for everyone. Even if they choose to do it, it’s once a week, with an unlikely, but possible, chance for Vulak loot (or whatever mob you want to substitute).
    Venalin likes this.
  14. Stymie Pendragon

    If the probability is 1% per kill it will remain that no matter how many times the dice are rolled. The only way you would get increased chances is if a form of bad luck protection were implemented. As it stands in EQ, each kill still does a random roll between 1 and 100 if the drop chances are 1%.

    This topic gets brought up regularly on the WoW forums due to so many mounts having a 1% drop rate. As an example, it only took me 34 tries to get Invincible (boss mount) while some people have been trying for nearly 13 years on lockout without seeing it.
    Neceros likes this.
  15. Dre. Augur

    I like this idea.

    Further, I'd like to see the Tier 3-4 names on a 3-day timer instead of a 7-day timer.

    We just want to play the game. Why make it so hard?
    Neceros and Dono27 like this.
  16. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Well thought out idea.

    But I really do not like it as presented.

    Here's how I would change it.

    Tier 1 (the most difficult, eg Vulak): A mob in Tier 1 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 1 - and only Tier 1.

    Tier 2: A mob in Tier 2 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 2 with a chance to drop one item from Tier 1

    Tier 3: A mob in Tier 3 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 3 with a chance to drop one item from Tier 2

    Tier 4: A mob in Tier 4 can drop loot from any other mob in Tier 4 with a chance to drop one item from Tier 3
  17. Dono27 Journeyman

    I think I can appreciate where you are coming from, but I would see this as a pretty big nerf stick to the idea and a major hindrance to what the idea is trying to achieve. The idea is to keep the broadest range of content relevant to the broadest range of players. I don't think your suggestion would change much.

    I previously used PoG as an example. Under your suggestion, I would not think that the larger guilds would view a PoG/Tunare raid much differently just because each mini has a chance to drop one item from any one mob in Tier 3, in addition to their current Tier 4 loot table.

    Naturally, I am biased towards my idea, but I tend to think my idea sufficiently limits upward movement, through probability, without putting a ceiling on it. Thinking of it like a slot machine, let it hit jackpot with a sufficient number of pulls. Let it be exciting and also rewarding. These servers don't have to be the same grind as every other server. It's not how they were sold. I am betting that such a system would appeal to the largest player base possible.
    Venalin and Skuz like this.
  18. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Main reason I dislike your idea is how badly RNG can screw with things on short timescales, over longer timescales of course it generally pans out okay but on TLP with their much smaller activity windows for expansions RNG can ruin the fun as there's too little time for the RNG to even out.

    Your idea is totally valid on a live server using this ruleset and 12 months between expansions and maybe it will get used that way some day.

    Scenarios such as ending up with a run of bad RNG or amazing RNG one guild could get a whole ton of t4 loot while another in the same 8-12 week time period gets a whole ton of t1 loot from the exact same targets - that seriously messes with people's desire to stick with their current guild or even the server when you are ending up on the poopy end of the RNG stick.

    Now I may be wrong and 8-12 weeks is enough time for RNG to work out okay with your system, but I doubt it.
    My suggestion could be a little too tight-fisted, could adjust those extra items from a higher tier up a few notches perhaps but that's tuning rather than concept.
  19. Dono27 Journeyman

    I am thinking that the loot floors are enough to prevent people from becoming so despondent that they quit their current guild or the server, but maybe I’m naive there.
  20. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    There are guilds that get bad RNG and won't see a specific item drop or will only have it drop once or twice throughout an entire expansion something that would only get worse the more items have a chance of dropping.
    Skuz likes this.