Returning players and the new TLP server

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Trinost, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Trinost Journeyman

    I am a returning player after I think 17 years. I was playing this in middle school on my family's computer until I was forced to focus on classes in high school. I got to level 46 in a necromancer, and 34 on a monk in kurnark. I choose classes that could feign death due to the obvious family aggro. I thought I missed out on my chance to live and enjoy classic everquest through current. I am looking forward to a normal classic server with hopefully some methods to prevent cheating so those like myself can re-experience what we enjoyed and finally get to experience the later expansions. I have never raided. I know there is so many here with a wealth of information and experience that want some magical and special server. I just want a replica of what I missed out on from level 1 to 50 so i can experience everything and this time with my wife.

    We are super excited to get our geek on together. We were however concerned about all this boxing stuff. Which it took me some research to figure out what it actually was. I can see how that can be a problem. What I don't understand is why people cannot play with people? There is enough people right? We took a look at p99 and seems like we missed out on the start of new servers there. However we desire to move past the first three expansions so not sure that would be a good fit anyways. What I did notice though is there is zero issues with not being allowed to box. There is plenty of people. So why must there be this desire to box? I remember everquest being very social. If you want to box I guess there is already servers for that. Hopefully this new server, if decide to join, be part of the community?

    Maybe require something like each account have it's own form of payment like credit card verification so that the adults and their families can play together and maybe this can prevent major boxing. I am no expert here. I just hope this server can be different. Let this server be a remembrance of all the ideals the game founders desired. Let everquest be what it was without all the cheating please. Thank you.

    P.s. just thought I would make this thread to let my voice and others like me be heard. There are those like me real returning players that want to experience it from the beginning without the cheating. Please don't ruin this for those of us with your greed.
    PVPme likes this.
  2. PVPme Augur

    Lets just all hope its at the very least a truebox server. A non-truebox would be a bigger mistake then Miragul.
    Thewiz likes this.
  3. Thewiz Augur

    This wins the pertinent post of the day award.
  4. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    The reason people box is extremely varied but I think the most common thread among people is their desire to be able to do the maximum amount of content on their own time.

    The game is extremely small as a solo player levels 50-115. Most content is designed to be done with about 3-4 characters.

    For people who have odd play times, intermittent play times or need to take frequent AFKs, grouping is simply not feasible. As you noted life changed a lot from the time when you originally played. For most people it has. The responsibilities and amount of free time people have now versus 20 years ago is vastly different.

    People don’t take too kindly to their cleric needing to AFK on a dime every 30 minutes when their baby wakes up or to take a business call. So that person may box an SK, Enchanter and Cleric. This way when they need to take that immediate AFK they can mez what’s in camp and log out all their characters etc. If boxing weren’t allowed this person would either not play at all or play a soloing class and not have access to many facets of the game.

    Truebox is another issue but it’s a failed experiment. It prevents people who don’t cheat from boxing and there’s no GM enforcement that is banning players who are obviously cheating and bypassing the Truebox code, even if they’re automating their group 24/7 for months on end.
  5. Starshape Elder

    Welcome back!

    You won't really notice boxers when the server launches, maybe the odd one here and there but for the most part every launch is filled to the brim with people. That new server rush is the best part of TLPs for me, sure has me back here checking the website multiple times a day waiting for the server announcement.
  6. SunDrake Augur

    I haven't kept up with the TLP Forums as much over the past month or two, but.. what? The last 6+ TLPs have been True-Box, what is the logic for arguing for this one to also be? I assumed with Mangler any remaining support for True Box would have flown right out the window. It's been a steady stream of 'new non True Box TLP' posts since this time last year. I thought primary considerations as alternatives mostly just consisted of Free Trade loot, and even more fringe desire for a PVP TLP?
  7. Alakshak Journeyman

    While I agree with the sentiment and would play on a TLP that enforced true No-Box (but not '99) there are some flaws. For one, you say you've been gone 17 years? I was boxing before you stepped away from the game. While I don't think I ever saw someone boxing during the true classic era it was not much longer after that that you would see them popping up. By the time PoP was in full swing it was not uncommon to see people up to 3 boxing on a semi-regular basis. Obviously the massive box crews were not a thing but 2-6 was very possible 17 years ago and not unheard of. The issue is now a days the barrier to entry is so much lower. Got 100$ lying around? Boom, laptop to run EQ.

    The myriad of ways cheating occurs on TLPs should be focused on more heavily and rooted out. That includes the work around for True-Box servers. But actual "true boxing" was apart of the experience of lets say '00-'04.

    The other issue would be what happens when a server reaches a population level where finding groups becomes an absolute nightmare. Or once a server becomes top heavy resulting in the same issue. TLP populations drops off quite a bit after PoP/LDoN and though it's definitely insurmountable, in general, with being apart of an active guild. For those with limited or odd hours it can be. While waiting for a new TLP I challenge you to level up on a TLP that is post PoP but pre-SoD (Mercs) with a class such a Cleric without getting PL'd. Or try leveling on Live (free) without using a Merc. Even with the accelerated experience I assure you it is not a pleasant time.

    I understand your sentiment and can appreciate it. But there are serious concerns at least long term with any TLP that truly enforced a No-Box. Again that does not mean the people getting around Truebox rules or using any other form of cheats should not be found out and punished. But "normal" players boxing legitimately are not the same thing at all.
  8. Vhayne Journeyman

    My suggestion is, get your wife, and hop on the new TLP when it's released. It's sure to start in classic like the previous ones. There will be plenty of non-boxers to play with. You 2 shouldn't have any issues.
    Keep in mind however, there are a few different types of boxers:

    1. Those who tend to group, but have an out-of-group cleric to back-up heal/rez. Or a similar utility class.
    2. Those that group with others, but choose to put their box characters IN the group, thereby taking up a slot for someone who actually is alone and LFG.
    3. Those that solo with their boxes and play each one manually.

    Then we have botters (confused with boxers quite often). These appear to be boxers, but they have software that automatically plays that box character (or many) for them. Sometimes, it's just like a healbot cleric that automatically heals the tank. All the way to the other end of the spectrum where you have an entire group and all of it's roles being automated, even pulling.

    Boxers are usually fairly cool, and handy to have around when it's tough to fill a spot. A lot of the time they will drop the box in favor of a real player. There are always those who are inconsiderate though. Botters however are almost always anti-social, selfish, and rude...and no doubt, cheating.
    Alakshak likes this.
  9. PVPme Augur

    I personally think it would be a HUGE mistake to make a non-truebox server without also releasing a truebox server to go with it.

    All the new players that a new TLP would bring in would be coming to the forums to complain, rightfully so, about the outrages amount of third party hacks going on which are all very obvious to spot. Lots of people tend to forget how much truebox has curbed the amount of cheats.

    Sure there are still a select few individuals that do it and eventually get caught on truebox servers, but no where near the same levels as we've all seen on past non-truebox servers.
  10. Alakshak Journeyman

    shudders in Ragefire

    Truebox is far from perfect but PVPme is not wrong. Truebox has limited the shenanigans to mostly those who are doing it as a source of income so until the risk/reward balance tips (more GM focus, internal policy changes) out of their favor they will persist.
  11. SunDrake Augur

    Hmm, let me just ask your opinion, then.

    If they released a True Box and a Non True Box Server, where would the gamers who use third party programs and farm Krono for RL profit go? They would surely not set up shop on a server where it would be pretty common for players to each have 2-3 characters. It would eliminate a whole lot of need for their services. It would allow normal boxers to contest their SMR or GEBs camp.. without cheating. I feel pretty certain they would choose the True Box model, as it provides them a significant advantage over players who don't use third party programs or bypass by the True Box code. It provides them with more customers and less competition on Krono from legitimate boxers.

    Now in terms of TLP variety.. there isn't much. The last non TB TLPs were Ragefire and Lockjaw. The changes to TLPs since then have been widely regarded as positive. AoCs, Picks, etc. We also know that many players seem to love a fresh start and are less inclined [read, not at all] to hop on established TLP servers and start up.

    So, where does that leave us? You might say it's just the end of the line for Non True Box TLPs, but they seem to not have abandoned that idea. Last year when there was an uproar about not having at least one Non True Box TLP they indicated "we heard you, and will consider the request" - so they have left that door open for themselves.
  12. PVPme Augur

    In a perfect world daybreak would just police their game more actively. I know they do and eventually catch people, but they should be more active then they currently are. I can't get behind your thought process of since people will cheat lets all just play on the cheat server.

    People who enjoy having their boxes automatically played seem to have bullied Daybreak into allowing it on live/non-truebox servers. I hope Daybreak sees how lucrative and successful Phinigel was when they made an effort to curb the cheats and expand on it. It seems the overwhelming majority of TLP players aren't a fan of the mass boxers that non-truebox servers bread.

    I think you guys(non-truebox crowd) deserves a non-truebox fresh server don't get me wrong. I just fear they won't launch a truebox with it to counter for people who don't wanna be apart of that type of server but still wanna enjoy the classic~>pop grind.
  13. SunDrake Augur

    Oh, absolutely. This would all be a complete non-issue if True Box servers functioned the way they were intended. I'd even personally go so far as to say I'd rather see them address this than continue to churn out new servers that only sees the problem increase with each iteration.

    Maybe our experiences are different, but I would view the Non-True Box server as the one less likely to encourage cheating? No third party programs necessary. No jumping through hurdles to bypass the code, or setting up 6 tacky laptops around your desk using USB Num Pads. You can actually just play as many characters as you'd like and/or are capable of. Most boxers I've had fun playing with on TLPs are not the cheat crowd. They actively use their experience and their set up to help their friends and their guilds. This is classic. This is the type of boxing that was part of my EQ experience. This has absolutely nothing to do with warping, and automated pullers, healbots, etc.

    I'm not really part of any crowd, and don't really have a dog in this fight. I am unlikely to invest much in the next TLP anyway. I do think that a new Non-Truebox TLP is the largest market that hasn't been catered to recently, though.

    I had a great time on a True Box TLP. When that time wound down I started looking at what I wanted out of EQ in the future. I started playing on Live and have never looked back. The restrictive elements of TLPs seem like they add to the game, and if your goal is just a once-through of the early expansions.. they might. Ultimately though, all TLPs are heading towards Live. Live EQ is real EQ. TLPs offer rich early game experiences for those seeking nostalgia, which is great. They should continue to refine TLPs to make them even more enjoyable for players in the future.
    PVPme likes this.
  14. PVPme Augur

    When I look back at my time spent on Ragefire and even the Sleeper server before it; I hated how gimped I would be unless I cheated. Its essentially a requirement for anyone who wants to take the server serious and get the best gear you can on your character.

    I can assure you if you weren't cheating then its very likely that you were riding on the coat tails of people who were on non-truebox servers. I remember entire guilds dependent on one player who had mass automated parties at his disposal. It was gross.
  15. Fraggly Augur

    A normal classic server would be great. You won't experience the later expansions on truebox unless you go join phinigel right now. Regular boxers typically accept real players because boxing does get tiring and can be frustrating at times, but they can and do maintain groups during West coast evenings, and get groups started without LFG for an hour then losing someone 20 minutes in.

    Cheaters are on every server, they cheat around rules and detection and will not ever consider dropping a bot for you or your wife.

    Truebox servers are for people that want to play classic-luclin, the multitude of servers that stall out at this point more than prove it despite what anyone may say. Past luclin most people take up boxing anyways. Troll?
  16. SunDrake Augur

    I've thought about this some recently. In terms of wanting to see raid content from late game [even say TBM and beyond] the existing servers might be the best or even only hope of doing so. Previously that just meant Phinigel, but now Selo's is a possibility. There is such a long road ahead for any other TLP server.. Ragefire, Coirnav, Mangler.. years. Will EQ be around that long? Yeah, probably. Will players be on those servers that long? No, not likely.

    Two parts of this are something I think is pretty important for any present or future servers:

    1. Cheaters cheat. This takes place on all server types. Live, Non TB, True Box. DPG decides what they want to do here. Spend nothing, change nothing, keep letting it ride. Spend something, change something, partial crackdown. Whatever. It seems to cause the most damage in terms of gameplay and ability to enjoy time spent in game for True Box TLPs, though. One or two individuals can wreck the game experience for literally hundreds or potentially thousands of players. This is the issue that deserves the most attention, though. TLPs are important enough to justify an increase in resources from DPG. The best use of those resources are likely rooted in the old fashioned GM style of policing. You don't have to have Devs waste time combating this with code work. Find literally one qualified candidate whose job it is to sniff into the affairs of TLP servers. They know boxing. They know botting. They can determine what flies and what does not. Build that into the cost of TLPs and you change the game for a lot of players, I imagine.

    2. "Past Luclin people taking up boxing anyways." - or, they should be able to, at least. The alleged harm done by boxing early on is nearly completely gone by a certain point. Whatever they decide that is. SoL, PoP, OoW.. can hammer out these details. I don't think most people feel like boxing after a certain point creates a negative impact on server health. Quite the opposite. If you want to make a server that enforces boxing restrictions until a certain point, then eases that restriction.. well, do it. It will be stated up front and the people who choose to participate are aware of that future change. It allows you to have those heavy early populations that everyone loves early on, but creates an environment that caters to those who wanna stick around longer.

    TLDR: Most TLP issues could be resolved with a greater level of DPG involvement. Create an environment where you can adapt to evolving needs on a per TLP basis.
    Fraggly likes this.
  17. PVPme Augur

    The facts are the facts. Third party hacks / scripts for boxs are basically allowed as long as you aren't being abusive to other players on non-truebox server which is the MAIN reason majority of TLP players don't want that rule set.

    If the devs think people who enjoy running hax to play EverQuest deserve a server then the PvP'ers deserve one to. Keep ours truebox please since we would rather have limited cheaters playing. ;)
  18. SunDrake Augur

    To be honest I just connected your name with what you'd like to see happen here, sorry. :) I used to be opposed to a PVP TLP just because I thought it was too niche and wouldn't have a healthy population. With Miragul, my criteria for potential future TLPs changed entirely. If they are comfortable littering up the log in screen with low population servers, then PVP TLP should absolutely be one of them. You have my Axe. :p

    Edit: I never did EQ PVP. I did do some EQII PVP and that was great fun. Based on some limited experience there I can see why it would be in everyone's best interest to restrict boxing on a PVP server, for sure. So if people are poking holes in True Box, they would just wreck a TB PVP TLP.
    PVPme likes this.

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