Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Angahran, Oct 23, 2019.
This just same as Mazame says: It requires vanquisher, If cannot perform, it is not given for free.
Are you guys reading entire posts in the context of threads or do you simply try to find one off angle to discredit an entire idea? What is the point of even participating in a discussion if you are going to ignore the overwhelming majority of what is said?
I'm not expecting people to agree with my view but at least acknowledge my view in its entirety.
Just say, hey Vu, EoK and TBM were too easy so we think vanquisher should be required in addition to everything else in the expansion and stuff from expansions you can't even get XP from anymore. EOK and TBM = too easy, poorly balanced chase loot. TBL chase loot = still kind of easy man up because we expect ToV to be harder and we hope the devs live up.
The problem is your viewpoint is just plain not reasonable. There is history of giving a bonus to raiders that have completed Vanquisher. Before T6 there wasn't one. To be honest, the bonus in TBL is pretty small. Give me the Eyes of Life and Decay over T6 any day. The point of the evolving items isn't T6, it was a time sink to get people playing the expansion well after they max'd AA (it worked). It as a big deal for grouper/casual raiders in that they could get better than raid gear in the expansion. The T6 was just an add-on at the end.
Let me try a different approach. What would be the ideal design for TBL evolving loot? Also, where do your currently stand on progression? Do you have Vanquisher complete? Do you have hunter and collections, etc complete?
As Fian kind of says: The T6 on the evolving iitems are small compared to the eyes from TBM.
Sure get around 2k hps and such, and some heroics, but if I could select between eyes or the T6, I would take that any day of the week.
The requirements for T1-T5 are easy, there NONE, just go and make xp, and yes, the items are still better than TS items, so I would say the "casuals" got the win there,
Then they realized they forgot the raiders, and to give raiders something , they put in nice and fair requirements, which follows the pattern from TBM/EoK, which is Vanquisher.
They fullfilled a nice thing from their point of view, Which is to prevent people having old collection rewards, and using those in ToV.
They also gave people incentive to go back into old expansions and do content they had previous skipped.
I kind of hope there will be something like that in ToV, if it has evolving items, maybe RoF / SoV / Hero journey or something like it.
And for those people thinking, it is not fair forcing people to do old content, no xp and such, they not forcing you to do it, you can skip it, you just dont get the best equipment in TLB/ToV, But you will be back having best equipment in expansion after(next Velious). It would have been much worse for you, if it had been a type 3 or 5 aug, which was 10 times as best as the one you can get in present TBL
So my recommendation to DBG, make next evolve items to be an aug, that can evolve from ToV, and future expansions, always be best in AUG, put it into ring or wrist,
20 years later...if you want the best gear...RAID. It isn't a new concept. If you feel slighted in any way, be sure to app to a raiding guild that is able to do the things you want.
Vanquisher is fine there is president there for it in previous expansions but so is just completing raids and looting a single item, I still think it is a little excessive when you take into account that groupers had to do nothing in TBL other than level them to max out their item which raiders still had to do as well.
Had groupers needed the following to max out their items (to group level), raiders needing vanquisher would have been easier to swallow
TBL progession done for ring
TBL travelers done for boots
TBL Collects done for shoulders
TBL Hunter done for gloves
It's done now, but I hope if there is evolving items in the future they think a bit more with regard to requirments for both raid and group players.
Except, there is something that counts against it.
You read the post that a lot never got past Stratos? Which means, they cannot do hunter, traveller, progression.
Then there also collects, which would leave them in the hands of the people in the bazaar, drivng price even more up
Let me see, groupers can get an item that can give them 50% more more ac and 3500 more hp than any group gear in TBL, and 40% more ac and 3000 more hp than anything in GMM, but its "unfair" because there is another piece of gear that gives raider 7% more ac and 400 more hp at the final level?
Am I reading that right?
This is why casuals can't have nice things, because of the whiny me me ME ME ME ME! attitude and selfishness. You are owed nothing, get over it.
And yet raiders are expected to have it all done, while I say vanquisher is exessive, it would have made more sence just needing vanquisher not all the expansion.
Why should there not be all expansion, you dont hand the final level for free, the weapon augs, requires all tbl, except raids.
This IS better, and etches up a notch, so ofc it shall have all expansion + alll raids and achievements.
And yet the final is barely an improvment over the max group item which requires nothing other than zoning in and looting an item from Fight Fire mission.The balance for group requrements and raid requirments are worlds apart.
I thought the weapon augs only needed Conquests. Could be wrong I've been done with the group stuff since January so not really looked at it since then.
I'm not sure why people keep saying casuals are whining and if you want the best armor then raid. There are a lot of assumptions going on in that regard that are not true.
People are discussing. Accusing a person with an opposing point of view of whining is just one of many ways personal attacks are used to cut down an idea instead of talking about the idea.
Also to just keep saying that if people want raid gear they should raid, without having an idea of what armor they have on, is another example of making a character attack rather than discussing actual facts.
Other than saying I don't think vanquisher should be included, I haven't once said I think the armor should be easier. I've only argued that it should be less front loaded for better balance.
And for those arguing in favor of vanquisher, I'm actually on your side. I think TBM was a great way to handle vanquisher. I think vanquisher should of had it's own reward rather than tying it to the evolving items.
Ideal? It's completely outside the box for how it works currently, so forget how it works and open you mind to a completely different concept on the matter.
In each of these steps, the items will be slightly better than the content you have access to, but slightly worse than the content you don't have access to.
T1 stats - T1 > ROS T2 group but < TBL T1 group.
T1 evolution - None
T1 leveling - killing anything anywhere that gives XP.
The Catch - The XP is super slow, slower than it is right now.
The cool part - Once you are flagged for T2 TBL, the ACH give you a 100% bonus XP to your T1 evolving items doubling how fast it reaches T2.
T2 stats - T2 > TBL T1 group but < TBL T2 group.
T2 evolution - TBL T2 flagged
T2 leveling - Killing anything in TBL
The Catch - The XP is super slow, slower than it is right now.
The cool part - Once you have completed all of TBL group progression, the ACH give you a 100% bonus XP to your T2 evolving items doubling how fast it reaches T3.
T3 stats - T3 > TBL T2 group but < TBL T1 raid armor,
T3 evolution - The current ACH expectations for the 4 evolvers
T3 leveling - Killing anything in TBL
The Catch - XP is stupid slow
The cool part - Once you are T2 raid flagged, the ACH give you a 100% bonus XP to your T2 evolving items doubling how fast it reaches T4.
T4 stats - T4 > TBL T1 raid but < TBL T2 raid
T4 evolution - Fully completed progression tab AND The TBL equivalents of the ACH required at T3
T4 leveling - Again, very slow
The cool part - Once you have completed the entire progression tab, the ACH give you a 100% bonus XP to your T4 evolving items doubling how fast it reaches T5.
T5 stats - T5 > TBL T2 raid
All of the stated stat levels would need to be considerate of how those stats are affected by augs of course.
But wait, what about vanquisher?
I agree, there should be an aug similar to TBM (or something else other than the aug). TBM really did vanquisher progression right.
A layout like the one above makes the items more TBL progression tied, gives group players something better than group armor but less than raid armor with TBL content. It gives non-raiders a way to get just a small taste of raid quality gear by doing a bunch of non-TBL work, and it gives raiders a few pieces that are better than what they can get from raiding, by doing extra work of course.
I will agree that not being able to evolve at all until you did the previous progression expansion tasks was not ideal. Pushing those to T3 would be an improvement that I could agree with. I don't agree with some of your changes above, but hey it is brainstorming so no need to nitpick on every single idea.
It sounds like instead of T6, you want the Vanquisher reward to be totally separate from the evolving items. Nothing wrong with that desire, but to be honest, only the most elite will complete Vanquisher anyway, and those are the least likely to complain that getting the items to T5 is too hard. So either way works.
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