I’ve noticed that refute for honor takes a LOT more work to keep up now than it did in ROS. I find myself having to cast this spells nearly every other spell cast in TBL. Are Paladins still keeping this 10% damage reduction on themselves? I am basically starting to view this as an 18K heal that can’t Crit. I know that rune is better than heal because none of the 18K will be “wasted” but this 18k number seems to really fall flat in TBL where we can take 180k melee damage in one round, removing the buff. As the mob damage has increased, I think this once again makes the SKs version better than the Paladins. This used to be one of the few areas that Paladins version was arguably better than the SKs, but now I am wondering if I will even continue to cast this outside of the initial cast for the +hate component. Whereas the SKs AC buff does not need to be reapplied every other cast like the Paladin’s version now needs to be. I am thinking we either need ours turned into an AC buff that doesn’t need to be re applied every other cast or the 18K number needs to be DRAMATICALLY increased (like to 40-50K). Does anyone else have any thoughts on this or am I thinking about it the wrong way? Our refute line essentially has no recourse now because Paladins have way more important spells that need to be cast than to be chain casting refute.
Refute for Power Rk. III Shadow Knight (107) Slot 1: Increase Hate by 7829 per tick Slot 2: Increase Hate by 7829 Recourse: Refute for Power Recourse II Versus Refute for Honor Rk. III Paladin (107) Slot 1: Increase Hate by 14221 per tick Slot 2: Increase Hate by 7900 Recourse: Refute for Honor Recourse II The Paladin version is clearly better pertaining to aggro as of RoS(they were 100% copies prior to that). That alone makes the Paladin spell superior in one clear aspect. Regarding the recourse buffs of both spells, AC makes more sense for Shadowknight. For Paladins, up until RoS, the recourse of our buff was a 10% Vie which was completely worthless. It was changed to SpA 451 so we always get a little value out of it as we have zero other 451 abilities. The strong suit of our spell is the aggro and the little mitigation buff is a small bonus. Chain casting it for the mitigation buff, even when it was chain castable pre-nerf, is not worth it. IMO, looking at the spell as a whole, I think it’s A ok for Paladins and have little complaints. If I had to have a problem with this spell, it’d be that our undead Helix debuff is tied to it now and I’d rather that go back to an AA. It’d be nice if the Refute for Honor Recourse was a little longer lasting but I can think of many other more pressing concerns that I’d rather Dev time be allotted to
Hmm, so your vantage point is that the hate generation alone is worth it? My only concern was that the recourse is essentially useless now in TBL, while the SK still get the added benefit of AC which doesn’t disappear after 3 seconds. Maybe it’s just that I only play the group game, but I’ve never once had an issue with agro on other players (pets with taunt on can be different story, but that’s easily fixed by asking to person to turn pet taunt off), so if this spell only is to generate hate, I’ll very likely unmem it permanently. I’m not saying that AC doesn’t make more sense for Shadowknights..I’m just saying that Paladins essentially have no recourse now and wondering if that’s the dev’s intention to bring parity to the tank classes.
I haven't noticed this fading particularly fast, but I'll keep a closer eye on it over the next week. I think the hate + insta-cast with our AA updates are great. If you play with a beastlord, especially when they're burning, the hate is very welcome. I'm assuming you're noticing it mostly on armors since most other mobs are stunnable? Let me know so I can do some testing.
Prior to its changes in RoS, Refute was useless and not used by most paladins. Now it's been tuned to give more +hate over time, a usable SPA 451 guard, quicker cast time and longer recast time. The thing that really forced its use this past year was not all that however, but consolidating our undead Helix AA to it. Search the forum for those discussions. Refute had become a second Yaulp and best used against undead. Stacking Refute and Protective allows a paladin to maintain a 25% guard indefinitely, which helps while in 2h weapon stance for example.
What you want is unreasonable, 800 ac is not 10% mitigation, if you want the spell to last longer the solution would be to decrease the mitigation down to like 2%. If it were 10% with a high damage limit it would be way too strong of a spell, it's plenty good as is. Right now it works well to absorb damage on engage, you should absolutely not be spamming this, you never should have, that makes no sense, why would you spam 10k damage absorption when you can spam 50k heals.
High skilled raid geared melee DPS classes can generate a lot of aggro. Without recasting it more than once you would likely loose aggro. As a warrior, I generate an insta front load of 50 k aggro in one hotkey made of short recast aggro disc, and I need to add another aggro boost if I want to be ok with aggro with such players.
Agree 100%. It is very easy to see which tanks pump out aggro or are on autopilot. Ranger dot and BP click are massive generators.
On Paladin, I’m generally casting Refute for the aggro and undead debuff. The mitigation recourse is a very marginal bonus that mostly succeeds on what it is intended to do IMO. I probably have it memed about 50% of the time through raid and group game. Prior to it’s revamp in RoS and the Helix aa also being attached, I memed it 0% of time. I somewhat get your complaint though. I play all the tank classes often. It’s very easy to keep the Shadowknight Refute AC recourse running and is the clear cut pro of that spell. 90% of the time I cast it on SK is only to keep AC buff maintained and I nearly always have it memed in the raid and group game. The Paladin spell doesn’t function in the same way but still has it’s own strengths. I personally tend to be a fan of stuff like that. We have important abilities in the game with ZERO strengths. I’d love those to be focused on for now versus this type of stuff
While I'd love for it to have 3-4x+ the amount of damage mitigation, it's one of those things you need to come to terms with that you need to have it up at all time. If you're not casting spells back to back and using AA skills in between spell cooldowns then you're not playing to your fullest. I can generally tank 3-4 in Maeratas with a cleric on a consistent basis. Also, for paladins, remember that MOST mobs in this expansion are stunnable. Load up those stuns and start a stun rotation, it helps a lot more than having to constantly refute. Favorite group is where I'm the only melee because then I can push the mob without fear of losing DPS.
In TBL, this spell is in dire need of more mitigation. 50-60k can still be taken down fast in TBL. When they made the spell, it was meant to give paladins a 10 percent absorb, sk's got the 800ac. I would rather have it changed to 800 ac, we have enough short time abilities to give us carpal tunnel now. I do like class uniqueness though, just raise it to 50-60k, there is no way this will overpower a paladin. SK epic is still is better than clicking all our toys to stay alive. Our target through the target spells keep there horrible resist rate versus sk's lifetaps being nearly unresistable I hate the SK vs pal threads, but this spell needs a higher rune attached to make it useful.
Guys, no, come on. refute for power, adds about 250 real ac, buff ac is garbage. I created an excel sheet a while back with a million rows and plugged in some damage numbers, on a mob that is evenly hitting 1's and 20's, an increase of 250 ac would decrease the damage you take by 1%. and that's on a mob that is evenly hitting 1's and 20's. it'll be less than that on a mob with higher attack power. Increasing the damage cap is not a solution, ours is already more powerful than theirs, by a lot. if you want the buff to last longer, there are two solutions i see, decrease the mitigation down to 2%, or, since it's SPA 451, change it so it only mitigates damage on hits over 30k or somewhere around there, would need tuning I'm sure. increasing the damage cap is an absurd request.
Agree that paladin Refute is better and also has become very different usage. SKs has little reason to recast theirs before it fades while paladins have a couple of reasons to do so and even keep it on cool down. I think it's okay as-is and a good value for merely 196 base mana cost.
In TBL refute does not last past one round. Protective lasts 3-4 rounds, both have to be recast. IMO 3-4 rounds of melee is not a lot to ask for a spell. We already have to spam yaulp every minute and harmonious every 3-4 minutes. A properly played SK can still tank better than a pally with their epic even if these changes were made. This change would not not even narrow the difference, it would just save us from having to spam it every 6 seconds to keep the rune up. This is the only expansion we have had to do this with, before in previous expansions it did last 3-4 rounds. I just disagree with you on this.
I don't think "spam" is a valid metric. Every class played "properly" requires keeping all abilities on cool down for the past many years and expansions. That's why players make hotkey macros and multi-binds, to reduce stress and simplify actions. Refute rank 2 absorbs 17219 and Rnk 3 does 18080. Now if you want to use Refute for it's vie recourse, then yes it won't last as long in harder hitting content and so should have been added to your spam key many months ago to play it "properly". Recasting Protective makes total sense to me since it's primarily an instant heal spell on the same timer as paladin Light (replaced). Comparing Sk epic click to Pal Refute isn't a fair one. I don't think trying to fix some perceived knight imbalance by further improving this one spell is a good answer to that tangent. Now it is also true that a paladin can stack Guardian (SPA 168), Protective (SPA 162), and Refute (SPA 451) for diminishing 61% mitigation (36 + 15 + 10) and that's the basic improvement of the design change. Further tuning is now possible and welcome. In that we can agree.
Every tank class has some mitigation tools to spam. Warriors for example need to spam Shield Break every 10 sec, it last maybe 1 sec against a raid mob and 2 sec against a group mob.
spurious comparison, Shield Break doesn't keep other abilities from being used. There's an opportunity cost to Refute in not being able to cast some other spell (don't know which, but some that the OP would prefer one must suppose)
I'm not comparing the 2. I'm speaking of mitigation abilities that you need to spam. All tank classes have some abilities to spam. My post is perfectly clear about this.
A spurious comparison. He's not here complaining about Disruptive Persecution or Yaulp or Spurn. The complaint is about a spell very specifically.
