Rebalance of Wiz/Mage DPS vs. Melee DPS on Raids

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Armida, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. Ezbro Elder

    I don't see why wizards can't have great burst and good sustained too. It is a dps class with little else to offer. Berserkers have that. You pick a dps class if you want top dps, else you pick whatever other play role you want to have. Now I see a lot of "I can do this, but I can also do great dps" from other classes, which is eating into the dps role of the dps classes.
  2. Tucoh Augur

    In a perfect world the only class that should generally beat wizards in sustained dps are necromancers and berserkers.
    Coagagin likes this.
  3. MagicMysteryTour Journeyman

    Wizards do seem to need a boost. I believe the last we heard on dps tuning was dps is dps. So every dps class should be able to burst and sustain well so its not a matter of them only getting help for one aspect. But that also means the sacred berserkers and wizards should be the best at bursting doesn't apply anymore as well. Everyone should just be competitive now and tuning or beliefs about standings in the past are out the window. Dps is dps is a double edged sword.
  4. Jennre Band Leader

    Without people raiding, you would not be grouping, as the servers would have sunset long ago.
  5. Vumad Cape Wearer

    People are talking about burst and sustained like they are two wildly different situations rather than a problem with event mechanics and class tuning.

    Let's use an example, Avatar of War from ToV. In this event, the AoW is up for the entire event, but there are also adds for the entire event. Lets compare a Necro, who should have the best sDPS in the game and the Wizard, who should be among the top burst DPS in the game.

    When the parse is reviewed, the Necros should always be #1 on AoW. They stack DoTs on a mob that is up for a long time and just absolutely pound on him, but when clicking on adds, they should be lower as the adds are not up long enough for them to stack enough dots.

    On the other hand, on adds, Wizards and Zerkers should be top of the parse, with their single target burst DPS and their AE DPS.

    When you combine all mobs in the fight, you should see very similar event averages.

    However, the game is out of balance. We have high HP adds that hit like trucks, so 1 tank per mob, and they have high HP, so necros can still out shine wizards because all mobs are sDPS, lasting longer than most group mob fights.

    The truth is, wizards should have great sDPS, all DPS classes should, but that sDPS should be coming from blasting lower HP mobs and AE type situations. And what is really a shame is that even in these situations, such as defenders of the tomb in CoV, the Wizards are still not shining. So even in AE burst situations, which is what Wizards are made for, they are not standing out. It should be pretty easy for Wizards to lay down massive DPS on that event, but they can't, because even in ideal situations, they are still broken.

    And over 30 minutes in a group, Wizards vs necro should be based on mob HP. High HP mobs lasting several minutes should be a necro win, but fast pulls killing mobs in 20-30 seconds the wizards should win. It should matter if this is at minute 1 or minute 30. Burst DPS vs Sustained DPS should be a factor of the life of the mob, not the length of the encounter. Wizards just aren't the best DPS anywhere, and that is a problem.
    Metanis, Skuz and Yinla like this.
  6. zleski Augur


    I disagree.
  7. Ezbro Elder

    I have a forum game for myself. Every time a poster writes "should", I disregard that whole post.
  8. Tucoh Augur

    You should maintain that limitation.
    Metanis, Szilent and Ezbro like this.
  9. Ezbro Elder

    Maintained it here too ;)
    Tucoh likes this.
  10. Szilent Augur

    Wizards situation in group play is 4x worse than in raids. The specificity of ADPS required to make wizards competitive (for 3rd tier, that is. competitive just meaning "deals more damage than full-on support classes") is, as a rule, only available in a raid setting. If a group spot gets "wasted" on such frivolities as a tank, puller, or healer, a grouper wizard is boned. Only a hypothetical second cleric would be less productive in most groups' "wizard slot".
    Coagagin, Tucoh, Voxvixen and 2 others like this.
  11. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    That would require both a massively more effecient pathing engine upgrade and far faster server processing, kiting a bunch of mobs puts entirely different strains on a server than point blank Nuking a bunch of mobs while they are all getting tanked in relatively the same spot.
    Allowing swarm kiting is simply stupid from a resource standpoint.
  12. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I am maybe a little old fashioned but Wizard in melee-range swinging his staff & casting should be comparable to a zerker for burst - if the Wizard is sitting out of ae rampage range then they should be a bit behind the zerker.

    Just my 2 cents on that score, but you are in the right ball park.
    Ezbro likes this.
  13. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Being wrong is your birthright.
  14. Vumad Cape Wearer


    That is why Zerkers have hugely higher mitigation and perform so well solo and as stand in tanks as compared to casters. By your logic, melee should always out perform casters. BST should out perform mage. BST wear leather and can heal themselves for a reason. Balance != same.
    Coagagin likes this.
  15. Tucoh Augur

    This issue is exacerbated by a secondary effect: many people who play wizards either don't know better or don't care that they are gimped. In either case they likely aren't the kind of player who is going to compensate their classes failings with precise and intense gameplay. They'll probably be as gimpy as their class.

    People know it and are less likely to bring them in to the party.
    Merika and Szilent like this.
  16. Cicelee Augur

    Improving wizards in a 3 minute parse is going to automatically increase their 30 minute parse because of the extra damage from the 3 minute parse.

    I personally do not think any class should dominate 3, 10 and 30 minute parses. Wizards should dominate a 3 minute parse. Not a 10 or 30. That is IMHO not what a wizard is or should be. I know some will agree with that assessment, and some will not
    Skuz likes this.
  17. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    This is whole notion of burst and sustained doesn’t really concentrate on what really dictates raid performance, movement. All the classes should be bursting the same and the design of the encounter separates the classes.
    Tucoh likes this.
  18. Tucoh Augur

    This reminded me of playing on TLP in early original EQ where rogues are trash. A rogue was lfg in sola and i didn't really care that he would do half as much dps as a monk or whatever, i took a risk and let him in. Three deaths from lava and two LDs later he apologized for wasting my time and quit. Didn't even make it to the group despite me spending a ton of time helping them!
  19. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    It's not the burn that needs improving it's the DPS without the burn that is the issue.

    Although our burn could use a rethink, as our burn AAs are all on different timers. From 7.5, 12 and 20 minutes. I think one of the others is on a different time but I can't remember off the top of my head. After burning once they never line back up again, so when in a group a wizzy can only burn once every 20 minutes and are then usually low on mana, our burn comes at a cost. Sustaining while in a group is low dps compared to other dps classes, they aren't like a mage that can put a pet on mobs while they med. Wizzys are the last choice for dps in the group setting, they bring dps to the table and nothing else, and their dps is worse than all other classes.
  20. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    You follow my logic correctly, that mitigation is almost meaningless on raids the difference in whether you live or die rolls on whether you get one shotted or not, and every non-tank is in virtually the same boat there, difference being is how much of a gap between ranged dps and melee dps exists for caster vs melee, if you want comparable dps in melee then give melee comparable ranged dps, melee getting the edge up close casters an edge at ranged - but a smiliar gap for both scenarios - resulting in upping ranged damaged for melee classes a whole lot.

    The gap between a zerker and a tank is pretty wide, its not like pre Level 100 when zerks could tank in groups relatively well, they are pretty fragile comparatively now for many reasons, they get a few defensive abilities on short duration with damage cap limitations on them which if used well can help but they can't really replace a tank, doing better than Rogues only among the melee/hybrids at taking damage.