Rebalance of Wiz/Mage DPS vs. Melee DPS on Raids

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Armida, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. Armida New Member

    Wizard and mage DPS is lagging too far behind all other DPS classes on raids in current content. I am not sure if it is cause of lag (I don't play either of these classes), but something isn't right when a druid does DPS instead of heal and can parse higher than wiz/mage. Necros are doing 3 times the DPS of wiz/mage on raids. I don't think this is a "git good" scenario as it is all of the wizards and mages in the guild. I would be shocked if there is any high end guild that has a wiz/mage making the top 10 of a parse on a regular basis.

    Is it possible that base spell damage of nukes is not in line with current DoT class and melee dps? Is it just the raid lag that has been broken for far too long? At this point in time a raiding guild would want to limit the number of wiz/mage to two or 3 for each would seem to be advantageous to have melee dps instead.
    Ahbed likes this.
  2. Zunnoab Augur

    I don't have an answer other than confirming lag is extremely bad to the point several events obviously chug along with extreme ghosting and glitchiness in general.

    I love the "kill only exactly the necessary number of drakes" achievement for the Guardians raid that was clearly designed while it was not intended to have the raid aggro ALL adds all the time, resulting in the only real solution being ridiculous kiting with mob pathing insanely crippled as drakes ghost everywhere.
    Sancus and Skuz like this.
  3. Zolav Augur

    3 Necros, 6 Bards, 4 Sks and 4 Shamans are all any raid needs. All other classes optional lol.
  4. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    DDs have been neglected for a very long time.
    Rashari, Coagagin and Skuz like this.
  5. menown Augur

    Realm of Insanity is a high end guild with top 10 parsing mages on a regular basis. "Git good".

    Sorry wizards.
    Pryssylus, Knifen and kizant like this.
  6. Slasher Augur

    You can say top 10 but what is top 10 if #6 does 30% less than #5 ?
    Kaenneth and Skuz like this.
  7. Marton Augur

    Yes, there are guilds with those players.

    Edit: If mages in your guild are not parsing in top 10, they can read info that Sancus frequently posts and they will improve.
    Pryssylus and Jennre like this.
  8. Cicelee Augur

    Top 10 is top 10, regardless of what percent difference is between 1 and 10.

    As a magician, there are several events where I can excel and have made the top ten. Other events, not so much.

    Wizards desperately need help, more so than magicians. Having said that if they want to bump my class up on damage spells I won't cry. But I do feel there is a disparity between wizards and the rest of the DPS classes.
    Skuz, Rashari, Laurana and 4 others like this.
  9. Slasher Augur

    I wouldn't agree with that at all.

    If you play the same role in a raid as rest of the top 10 your potential dps shouldn't be that far behind. Other factors determine the actual balance but if a mages/wizards role is to dps on a raid no other dps class should be doing 2-3 times the dps they do and saying 2-3 times is being generous we all know the difference is greater.
    Ezbro likes this.
  10. kizant Augur

    Stop grouping wizards and mages. They're completely different classes and their situations are completely different.
    Moege, Ssdar, FawnTemplar and 17 others like this.
  11. menown Augur

    In statistics, "Top 10" is considered an ordinal scale. It does not care about differences between each data point. What Slasher is referring to is a ratio scale (i.e., not the same as a "top 10" list).

    Yes, you can argue the separation between each measure through class balance, but that is on a different topic than what the OP presented. If you really wanted to balance classes, first you would need to fix the raid lag problem. Second, you would need to fix the raid debuff slot problem. Finally you would have a better vision of true class potential and can rebalance as needed.

    At this point, you are just arguing because you can. Forumquest?
    Hellowhatsyourname likes this.
  12. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    Thinks like that tend to happen when you muddy the water. Comparing say single target dps for some with multi target combined for others.
  13. Szilent Augur

    top10 is 900k & 1M sustained.

    from the most recent Silent Redemption raid:
    /GU Combined (34) as: The Amalgam Arbiter in 23.8m 31.5B@22,047.6Ksdps
    | Magician + pets #1 1.5B@1,083.2Ksdps
    | Magician + pets #2 1.3B@918.1Ksdps
    | Necromancer + pets #3 1.3B@899.6Ksdps
    | Necromancer + pets #4 1.2B@858.4Ksdps
    | Rogue #5 1.2B@854.1Ksdps
    | Monk #6 1.2B@817.7Ksdps
    | Berserker #7 1.1B@797.9Ksdps
    | Berserker + pets #8 1.1B@790.7Ksdps
    | Beastlord + pets #9 1.1B@785.9Ksdps
    | Berserker #10 1.1B@747.1Ksdps
    Coagagin and zleski like this.
  14. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    Comparing melee dps to pure caster dps is a dangerous business in 2021. Melee classes have an easier time dealing damage because melee doesn't have global cool down timers and gem refreshes that are adversely effected by in game lag. Fixing lag once and for all in the game would be a better ask than asking for silk classes to receive dps increases. You're just asking for melee dps to be castrated for no reason at all and for increases silk casters receive to be nerfed, rendering no one happy. Less lag makes everyone happy.
    Hellowhatsyourname and Elyssanda like this.
  15. Fintank Augur

    Exceedingly wrong on all accounts here outside of very niche scenarios. Sounds like where you are feeds certain classes fully and leaves others to dangle, or maybe too many people who don't know what they're doing. Proper ADPS and play for all DPS classes results in numbers no where near your scale for 90% of things.

    If you're fixated on something like an 80s Zlandicar with a Berserker vs Wizard then yeah probably, but this isn't the status quo or even close to it.

    Lag typically alters the top 10 more than anything now, it favors some classes and decimates others. Wizards are the only DPS class that really need a little slingshot action.
    Skuz, Zolav and Jennre like this.
  16. Zunnoab Augur

    The top ten argument is really silly. Raid makeup varies widely from one guild/raid force to another. Sustained as well since the higher the DPS total the higher percentage of the time discs/ADPS are running, for short events.

    That's not even getting into a comparison of how complicated it is to get closer to ideal numbers from class to class.

    I have no answer. I just know enough to know the "top ten" argument is meaningless without the context of the specific roster.
    Tarvas, Pryssylus, Skuz and 2 others like this.
  17. Sancus Augur

    As others have said, the situations that Wizards and Mages find themselves in are not comparable. Wizards fundamentally need help, and are also heavily impacted by lag. Mages are disproportionately affected by lag, but in the absence of lag perform well (poor burst, good sustained). None of this should be reduced to who can/can't make the top 10, only parses with lag, only parses without lag, or whatever else.

    The problem that Mages have is that lag can reduce our burst DPS by about 75% and our sustained DPS by about 50%. All classes are impacted by lag, but some are affected disproportionately. Pure melee are generally less affected than casters, and DoT casters are generally less affected than DD casters. Mages are hit particularly hard because pet DPS drops off even more than spell DPS.

    The only way to fix that is by addressing the root cause, raid lag. If you tune Mages up to perform comparably to melee with lag, we'll end up very far ahead of other classes without lag. The group game will also be completely unbalanced. In any event, people who aren't playing the class don't care what DPS Mages do on average, they care what Mages "can" do. The solution to that is to fix the consistency issue (by fixing the lag). Unfortunately, we've been waiting the better part of a decade for lag to get addressed, and it hasn't.

    EQ DPS definitely has some underlying balance issues if lag went away, but they're not really related to Mages. Wizard's lack of DPS is definitely among those.

    We both know that parse isn't at all representative of what those other classes can do, so it feels a bit misleading to post it without context.
    Ssdar, FawnTemplar, Rashari and 6 others like this.
  18. Szilent Augur

    It's a silly thread. I'm participating!
    Cicelee, Jennre, Biltene and 3 others like this.
  19. Slasher Augur

    I'm not saying they're in the same situation. Just saying if class x,y are behind class z and they all play the same role they shouldn't be THAT far apart from each other.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  20. henry0918 Journeyman

    Yea yea yea, real proud of your big numbers
    People like you should be ashamed of yourself
    When did abominations like parsing made its way into Everquest 1?
    I thought these stuff only happens on ESO / Warcraft

    Keep throwing your meaningless numbers around while normal sane people all know that parse isn't at all representative of what those other classes can do, so it feels a bit misleading to post it without context.