Re-tuned HAs

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Galien, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    XP scaling is/should be an entirely different topic.
    But when talking XP, you also have to keep in mind that RoS T2 mobs give only <90% to exactly 100% of an AA per kill, while T1 mobs are more like between 60 to 80% of an AA.
    That in itself is a "scaling down" of sorts.
    And along with that, presumably to keep XP "in line", they've reduced the XP of EoK mobs accordingly.
    As a result, the (unchanged, and fixed to the mission completion) XP from CotF+TBM HAs sttod somewhat out more than before. So now people claim this to have been the reason.
    While i argue that - if XP were any reason at all - the low XP mobs in RoS give were "the reason" in the first place.
    During EoK, no one complained about XP from Gribbles specifically or HAs in general. Why?
    Simply because EoK XP was better over time, and provided just as valid an ALT-levleing/AAing route as the HA route, only better.
    With RoS that's gone.
    What's NOT gone though are some ALTs of mine that i still want to level+AA up.
    But according to your reasoning i should not be able to anymore? WTF?
    The opposite should be true: Just because i can now, at 110 defeat mobs at higher level than they were at 105, they should give (slightly at least) more XP too - for that lowbie at least, not necessarily for my 110 character.

    However, if "scaling" were done "properly", i.e. both the environment's difficulty as well as the HA-rewards scale both up and down, e.g. at the player's choice, any XP-related discussion would be moot again.
    Because then it'd be MY choice if i want to do a single HA in 3hrs at 110RoS difficulty, giving my level 100 box 300AAs in the process or if i want to do the same HA at the level 100 "environment difficulty" it was released at for the 16-19AAs it originally gave but i am done in 5minutes.

    CotF, and it's two add-on's were a GREAT expansion.
    You look at the XP aspect you feel is out of tune TODAY and from that and from today's problems you judge the whole expansion.
    But you overlook the variety and "size" that expansion gave, and also the (yes, lasting) playability it gave.
    CotF tasks, old scaling, were STILL challenging at level 105 in TBM gear for me - that's two expansions that CotH "outlived". In EoK gear, i breezed through some tasks, having finally gained the power-distance i personally "needed" - and i had hopes for RoS to give me the power-boost i need to "mop up" the expansion.
    And because i did not repeat any single mission to boredom, i would've enjoyed redoing the whole thing for my ALTs, whereas i regard "having" to do EoK progression for the same ALTs more of a chore.
    I'd still have "fun" helping the settlers in TEWK, fighting bixies and experiencing Neriak and all that - many different "themes" with theme-unique missions. better than anything we had since, despite some "bleak" theme/mission designs and also despite each mission consisting of "run there, kill that, return to there". Doing "run there, kill that, return to there" in DH missions (outside Gribble) had an extirely different "look+feel" than basically the same "run there, kill that, return to there" in Bixie. Well, at least to me.
    The replay-ablility makes it a great expansion in my eyes.

    Players are different, so no single "plan" or "system" works equally well for all.
    But if all parties - i.e. Dev's on one side and the many different player-interests on the other were open and up-front with their expectations (i know, hardly realistic that, and expectations change over time too), i am sure there could be thought up a system that would cover all interests to way more than 80% - which were not only a compromize but a win-win.
    Even (or especially) if that system would involve more than just "my level" as one setting and "the reward" as a second; like the "custom" difficulty in a single-player game.
    Tornicade_IV likes this.
  2. smash Augur

    During EoK the xp from cotf were ok, because eok entry zone were not so hard, with massive dots/flying drakes. And those extra 5 level did provide dos boost so people able to do 5 instances compared to 3 earlier making the problem visible.

    And i wanna bet the devs had logs on xp progress were some popped up, which they investigated. And those came ahead of what the devs expected.
  3. Bigstomp Augur

    CoTF was too easy.
    Bayle made it challenging at the end, that was about it.

    I think TDS did get the balance about correct though.
  4. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Well, if CotF XP was ok then, it is "ok" now too, because THAT XP has not changed.
    What HAS changed is the XP in EoK because of RoS.
    So your argument was just backwards then i guess.
    Instead of asking for an XP nerf to CotF (too), you should have asked for EoK XP to be set back at where it was pre-release? And for RoS XP to be scaled UP to be in line?
  5. Bigstomp Augur

    I did a couple EoK ha's recently working at hunter. I assume 60aa per HA is acceptable. (did take me some time, but with a real group we'd have plowed it fast)
  6. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    I was talking base-population, giants and sarnaks specifically which give significantly less XP per kill than before, even on 105 characters as i've said since release.
    Since i hardly do EoK HAs, i can't comment on that. But i would assume that's "acceptable" as you put it still simply because HA-XP is a fixed thing, independent from individual mob-XP?
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  7. Tornicade_IV Augur

    TDS is the most boring expansion ever.
    TBM and COTF are by far better expansion of the three.
    I would rank those expansions
    1. TBM
    2. COTF
    3 ROF
    4. EOK
    5 Hot
    6. VOA
    7. TDS

    Here is the problem with a TDS style expansion. you get in there and are so focused on unlocking zones.. you miss the content along the way because your moving on to the next content. perhaps it was fun when it was released but as a returning player I find it a chore there is nothing really compelling about it.. its certainly not content I want to go back through and it certainly doesn't make me want to jump ahead of my progression plan and level like TBM does.

    What makes COTF so great is that there is barely any forced linear line of progression until you get to those 6 or so Group non ha missions.. those so far have seemed to be pretty well done themselves.
    You don't feel like doing lardis 2nd mission.. hah you can go over and do one of ross missions or jump over to Brother Estle or help out per marla..

    What the HA's also do is rally tie in the static zones and allow players to get familiar with those zones before they can actually do the static content.

    When I went through western karan to work my zone progression.. I knew where everything was which mobs I could take a couple and which ones I needed to single

    Same thing with TBM . When I get 105 and hoefully ready to do my static progression .

    Quite frankly the only people I se who don't like HA's are raid centric players who cant stand to see people doing things and having fun without raid gear

    Edit: I also like the dailey bonus missions aspect of ha's. Getting a TBM mission and discovering I needed to do this or that just to do the mission really gets you out and about on the content .
  8. Wizlard Augur

    EverQuest forums make me wonder if EQ people think higher word count = more compelling.
    Warpeace and Sissruukk like this.
  9. Bigstomp Augur

    It was just part of doing progression, I didn't think about it.

    I can see your point (it's a pain in the butt not being able to drag returning friends back there without doing progression).

    I was commenting about difficulty of the content vs people at the time.
  10. Aurastrider Augur

    Since fun is all subjective your view on expansions is interesting for me as I personally would put TBM at the bottom of that list not the top. For me I would rank them ROF, HOT, VOA, COTF, EOK (although I have a very small sample size but it has been fun), TDS, and dead last TBM. A crafter at heart the lack of any real trade skill's in TBM and EOK put them further down the list for me. I do agree that linear progression expansions are frustrating as zones like cavers (which I consider one of the worse zones ever) make for unenjoyable forced game play just to get to more enjoyable content but at the same time with the progression AA's it does make me commit to sticking it out in a zone like that when I would have left that zone after an hour of game play due to hating it so much.
  11. segap Augur

    There are a few hollier than thou types that demand everyone does everything the hard way. Likewise some from the group centric player base that wants everything easy mode. Most of us just want a fun and entertaining game for everyone.

    I don't like HAs and it has nothing at all to do with your above impression. It's because I don't enjoy scripted play. I find many of the kill 5 things, loot 10 things, speak to X types of tasks to be boring and tedious. I prefer open world play where I decide what I'm going to do. If you enjoy playing a game on rails, so be it. Have your fun. I just want enough people playing and enjoying themselves to keep the financials healthy so this game can survive. Although I am greedy and want content I enjoy and I advocate for such. That advocating does at times include wanting less of the things I do not enjoy such as HAs. That does not mean I'm against the players who enjoy them, it just means I'm giving my voice for what I'd personally prefer for my own entertainment.
  12. Yinla Augur

    This is me, I don't enjoy doing the same missions all the time, I didn't enjoy LDON or DON for the same reasons. I do enjoy the few missions in anniversary content where I get to pick how I complete it. But if others enjoy it, good luck to them just don't expect me to join you. :)

    That said I'm enjoying running my alt through level 100 - 105 content at the moment, which includes HAs and because I haven't done them hundreds of times it isn't a chore and I'm enjoying the stories. :) TBM did become a pain getting lesser spirit armor done, but they are short enough I didn't get too bored.
  13. wingz-83 Augur

    This is good that people are experiencing this. It makes people realize just how much DB and other players feel towards their style of play and that's what this is directly affecting. Style of play.

    This isn't like the XP nerf to RoF and back that was implemented a bit ago. That was just to XP and can be worked around or just more time involved, just a bit more playtime. Doesn't interfere with the style of play really.

    Also this isn't like the standard nerfs to characters that happens every patch or 2. That's so normal that it's just an fait accompli anymore. This more affects the style of play but you can still play and generally have a knowledge of what you're going to find going into a HA or whatever.

    This is retuning the difficulty of older established content.

    Heck they should go even further, from my understanding Hate / Fear are upping their levels like HA's as well. DB should make all raids like this in the spirit of fairness.

    If group content is going to scale, then raids should scale as well. Wanna do Crypt raids at 110 for achievements or items? They deserve to have updated spells/hp/dps etc as well right?

    Even though they weren't designed with those spells / mechanics.

    At level 115 they'll be even updated beyond that too! If that's the "new normal" that's being established, it should be across the board right?

    With this change, the much vaunted concept of newer gear makes older content easier, goes away even though the rewards aren't updated.
    Tornicade_IV and Mordeen like this.
  14. Tornicade_IV Augur

  15. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    One could, as you do, claim HAs are "playing on rails".
    One could also say though, that HAs are like any other task - only with their own instance to go with it.
    And nothing stops you to request an instance, kill everything and NOT worry about a task or it's rewards.

    I for myself, i agree that the task itself is "scripted" (well, if you interpret the task steps that way).
    But the important thing for ME, where i do not feel raidroaded, is that i pick the task i want to do and (mostly) the order i do them in too. For CotF, ok i have to do HA1 before i can do HA2 from the same quest-giver; but i can just go to a different quest-giver i do not feel like doing HA2.
    TBM had light/decay, the two sides of a coin but otherwise much one setting (though with lots of lore and humor that made it fun to me) and Crypt of Sul. CotF beats that in my eyes through diversity - you have 2bixies,2neriaks,2karana,DH,Tower,Argin - that is, depending how you count it, 5 or 9 different scenarios.

    LDoN's had - if memory serves - 4 base camps and each base camp had 3 or so different dungeons, each dungeon had that "search/collect/kill" topic you chose. while, perhaps with the exception of Butcherblock that was lots of travel from trigger to instance, limited in scope and required time. and the +6augs you could get were great that the time for a grouper (as was the vendor-gear of elemental planes quality)!
    DoN's were somewhat more of a bother, mostly due to travel times involved.
    Both pale against CotF and HAs in general.
    But we also had LoY and PoP as very valid places of similar difficulty and even XP rewards - so certainly more choices for the different playstyles.

    HAs, in my eyes, combine that.
    I can still request an HA and get a certain population in "my" little private corner of the world.
    In some instances i was surprised by respawns (not sure if those were HAs though, i just remember the surprise) but mostly i could clear my little pocket-world and then move on.
    The best thing for me:
    I have 6hrs or so of "uptime" after zoning in, and noone cares whether i go afk to do groceries or something else in between. I do not hold anyone up by holding a "camp", and i AM not held up by anyone else doing the same thing that i want to do as i am in static zones (even /pick has a threshold and you go try to pick a new base zone when you are one of two groups trying to get the same aug...).

    And finally, to combine the two replies i quoted:
    I could just get the instance for the kills/XP (talking EoK HAs here, not CotF ones that you MUST complete for XP), ignoring any task steps - OR i could go for currency and actually complete them.
    There was a lot if "in between" too, e.g. kill only the very necessary mobs to get the next steps up for max currency over time, of the "kill everything" for max XP per instance, with currency being an "on top".
    I certainly feel much more "railroaded" by the fact that basically only RoS T2 zones are semi-viable places to XP in these days, and much, much more harassed by being forced to play in static zones.
    Vexana_Lanys, Yinla and Speathdell like this.
  16. Cicelee Augur

    I do not have the time to go back over the last 30 pages. Is everyone just saying the same thing a different way, or is there actual progress in this thread? As in, a red name on page 47 says the development team is looking into potential changes or something...
  17. Gana Elder

    A red name came in and said they made a decision and it will be implemented in the Feb patch onto Test soon. Details to come.

    EDIT: And said that it will be tuned to make it easier.
  18. Bobsmith Augur

    Headed for 100 pages. Woot woot
  19. Jumbur Augur

  20. Fohpo Augur

    Gyurika Godofwar and wingz-83 like this.

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