Re-tuned HAs

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Galien, Jan 17, 2018.

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  1. draginn Elder

    This is not hard for most people with gear etc! But for bots no gear aas and new people returning to game its to much. Esp when new expansion comes out and you power up.The last xpan should be a lot more easier not harder for them!
  2. wingz-83 Augur

    Why do people keep responding to this guy. Click his name and ignore him. I made a helpful graphic.

  3. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Because that creates too much of a filter bubble over time.
    And lets him post his nonsense undisputed.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  4. Bigstomp Augur

    Because he occasionally provides quality input. I disagree with him often, I can ignore that. But he's out there actually testing not crying.

    If it took him 2 hours with wipes (a previous post mentioned something like that) it's probably harder than it should be. If you ignore the bravado, he's giving you actual good/tested information.
  5. Aurastrider Augur

    To me this is the root of the actual problem. Players on live should not be "testing" content it should be tested before it goes live and in this case there was feedback from people on test with the concerns that have occurred from this patch before it went live. What is the point in having a test server if the development team is not willing to take concerns seriously before rolling out changes. I understand there are things that fall through the cracks and later come up as a bug and I am fine with that but this is far from some unforeseen issue and if the development team actually did not consider how this would impact a large portion of their player base they are obviously out of touch with their players. If the development team would just come out and explain what the purpose of these changes are or their intended direction of the game going forward it would go a long way with those who are impacted the most by these changes. I understand some companies don't want to give away their trade secrets but communication past "we are investigating things" is not an unreasonable request. People voicing their concerns and waiting for a response is better than people staying silent and just quitting. This at least give the company a chance to evaluate things and determine if making a change is worth retaining these customers or if the intended outcome of this change will some how make them more money in the long run even with the loss of these players.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  6. Tornicade_IV Augur

    Oh his testing with no supporting parses is better why? cause he like you a self proclaimed hardcore raider who is on the raid gear dole.

    yet here you guys go pay for three accounts twink and pl up your alts and say oh look I can do this therefore it isn't an issue. , meanwhile cherry picking his "test"

    at the same time both o you in the past have been very outspoken and adamant about raid tuning in the past.

    at 102 I have moloed and grouped my way to all but three COTF ha's and all the TBM ha's except one that are needed to do the crypt ha's

    I don't expect to do these thing in 45 minutes. I typically already spend up to 90 minutes to 3 hours doing some of these missions.

    now at 102 I am being told not only should it take longer but I am supposed to find others to join me to do these missions I was doing just fine before the patch?

    or that even though my gear has scaled up and I have kept my aa up from 95 to 102 that these missions should be harder for me. These missions are supposed to scale but theya aren't allow player to scale.

    If I was 95 in 95 tbm gear. leveled to 102 and was having issues in 95 tbm gear.. That would be expected.. however its not the case. I have upped my gear to level 100 TBM gear. I should be even or ahead of the scale .. not behind it.

    and when I get to 105 and replace that tbm 100 gear with tbm 105 gear. I will definitely be behind the new scale until I start getting eok t2 gear.

    That may make sense for EOK ha's but not for TBM and COTF ha's
    Niskin likes this.
  7. Whulfgar Augur

    Fast question..

    A level 105 character, in a grp of lvl 105 toons / mercs .. When they get HA's are those HA's tuned to the new 106+ RoS ? Or is that ONLY .. if there is a lvl 106+ character in the grp to begin with?

    My issue is lack of progression on any toon sept my main. Thus instead of being able to simply go run said HA, I'm having to do all the progression as well.. (which for this exact instance sucks big time .. and also is the reason its taking me forever right now)
  8. Moege Augur

    Why do you care ?

    Tornicade_IV and Mordeen like this.
  9. Scorrpio Augur

    From my experience, it is dynamic. Does not matter if you get an HA with a solo level 95 and inbite/taskadd people later. What matters is who is in the zone.
    Example: me in an HA (pre-RoS) with 105 chanter and druid and then-100 mage. All mobs solid red to mage. A guildie asks for help with something so I leave mage to hold the instance, and run chanter/druid out. The moment they zone out, mobs become blue/white/yellow to mage. Even though group/task composition did not change.
    A bit later, they return to the HA. The moment they zone in, mobs jump to being red to lvl 100 mage (but blue-yellow to a 105)

    Someone did test what happens if higher level zones in while a mob is on aggro. The aggroed mob level did not change, but instance became seriously bugged after that.

    So it matters not in the slightest who gets the HA. If you know anyone who completed the prog before, they can request, taskadd your toons and leave.
    Whulfgar likes this.
  10. Whulfgar Augur

    ok so lvl 101+ and boom you get the reds ?
  11. Moege Augur

    And get the lockout when it completes, so nobody is willing to do it.
  12. Scorrpio Augur

    So? I am sure there are plenty of people who did TBM prog long ago and have no plan to run any of those HAs in the next 6 hours. Heck, most people who did those do not plan to do them ever again.
    Whulfgar likes this.
  13. Whulfgar Augur

    ok just went to dead hills.. 3 characters, 3 mercenaries (all level 105) .. every mob in it was either dark blue, white or yellow con's.

    So it would appear, to be that once anyone is lvl 106+, is when you / they / which ever HA you are in get the RoS level mobs.

    I just confirmed that much so far.
  14. smash Augur

    The person WHO does take the task does not mean ANYTHING, as long the person does not zone in. Let a person WHO is 110 Group with 5 lvl 85,and does not zone in, then the mobs level be level around 85. BUT as soon as the lvl 110 zones in, then the mobs will certer in level around 110.

    When the anniv mission in Plane of War does come, you can for sure check there. It was also so it would last year be White/yellow/red, and yet Again, but question is now, how hard will the mobs hit... and the catapult which I would be surprised if it hits for less than 150k.
  15. Cicelee Augur

    I have a co worker who currently plays World of Warcraft. I was discussing with him the changes to Everquest HA and scaling missions. He said that his game was making radical changes from the sense that every monster in the game scales to your level. So theoretically a player could create a level 1 character and stay in the first zone their entire life, killing bears and snakes and rats, and hit max level.

    I wonder which game learned from the other...
    Mordeen likes this.
  16. gotwar Gotcharms

    Saw a bunch of questions regarding HA scalings and had time this morning to go take a look for myself.

    Overview - HA Scaling at 105 and TDS HA Scaling at 110

    The first question I wanted to look at was "Do the new scaling stats start at 105?"

    I took my 105 Gnome Paladin into a COTF HA (Disrupting the Ritual), then compared this with a static TDS zone (Brother Island), which is the expansion the level 105 scaling stats for COTF are pulled from. I also wanted data on TBM HA's, so I booted one of those up (We Make Our Own Rewards).

    I also had someone mention to me that TDS HA scaling did not seem as brutal as the COTF/TBM HA scaling, so I also loaded up the 110 Warrior and took him into a TDS HA (Kedge Counterblow), then compared this with a static TDS zone (Combine Dredge). Fortunately I already have a solid data set to compare this with to see how TDS HA scaling at 110 stacks up against the other two HA expansions.


    105 Tests

    Tests performed with a no-dmg one-hander and shield.

    1. COTF HA (Disrupting the Ritual) vs 105 Paladin

    A xulous elder in 1001s - AVG Hit: 4009 || Incoming NPC DPS: 4780

    /GU Tanking summary for: Gotgnomes --- Total Melee --- Damage: 4770739 --- Avg hit: 4009 --- Attempts: 2235 --- Parried: 413/2235 [18.48%] --- Dodged: 161/1822 [8.84%] --- Blocked: 118/1661 [7.1%] --- Defended: 692/2235 [30.96%] --- Missed: 353/1543 [22.88%] --- Hits: 1190/2235 [53.24%] --- Real Hits: 1190/2235 [53.24%]

    2. TBM HA (We Make Our Own Rewards) vs 105 Paladin

    A cherished citizen in 668s - AVG Hit: 6743 || Incoming NPC DPS: 7362

    Tanking summary for: Gotgnomes --- Total Melee --- Damage: 6729238 --- Avg hit: 6743 --- Attempts: 1687 --- Parried: 254/1687 [15.06%] --- Dodged: 95/1433 [6.63%] --- Blocked: 78/1338 [5.83%] --- Defended: 427/1687 [25.31%] --- Missed: 262/1260 [20.79%] --- Hits: 998/1687 [59.16%] --- Real Hits: 998/1687 [59.16%]

    3. Static TDS Zone (Brother Island) vs 105 Paladin

    An eyepecker squawker in 1008s - AVG Hit: 4090 || Incoming NPC DPS: 4707

    Tanking summary for: Gotgnomes --- Total Melee --- Damage: 4245604 --- Avg hit: 4090 --- Attempts: 1966 --- Parried: 348/1966 [17.7%] --- Dodged: 143/1618 [8.84%] --- Blocked: 144/1475 [9.76%] --- Defended: 635/1966 [32.3%] --- Missed: 293/1331 [22.01%] --- Hits: 1038/1966 [52.8%] --- Real Hits: 1038/1966 [52.8%]

    110 Tests

    1. TDS HA (Kedge Counterblow) vs 110 Warrior

    A Doomscale shadow guardian in 466s, 3615k - AVG Hit: 6731 || Incoming NPC DPS: 6662

    Tanking summary for: Gotwarx --- Total Melee --- Damage: 3028872 --- Avg hit: 6731 --- Attempts: 735 --- Riposted: 37/735 [5.03%] --- Parried: 41/698 [5.87%] --- Dodged: 28/657 [4.26%] --- Blocked: 12/629 [1.91%] --- Defended: 118/735 [16.05%] --- Missed: 167/617 [27.07%] --- Hits: 450/735 [61.22%] --- Real Hits: 450/735 [61.22%]

    2. Static TDS Zone (Combine Dredge) vs 110 Warrior

    A regrua intruder in 331s, 3451k - AVG Hit: 5632 || Incoming NPC DPS: 4470

    Tanking summary for: Gotwarx --- Total Melee --- Damage: 1408064 --- Avg hit: 5632 --- Attempts: 549 --- Riposted: 72/549 [13.11%] --- Parried: 69/477 [14.47%] --- Dodged: 34/408 [8.33%] --- Blocked: 8/374 [2.14%] --- Defended: 183/549 [33.33%] --- Missed: 116/366 [31.69%] --- Hits: 250/549 [45.54%] --- Real Hits: 250/549 [45.54%]

    DI Graphs

    110 Tests 1 & 2, followed by 105 Tests 1, 2, & 3.



    My Paladin is terribly neglected, objectively awful, and also a Gnome.

    Also, scaling at 105 seems on point and doesn't appear to have been affected by the 106-110 scaling revamp. This was the expected result, since the 105 and below scalings wouldn't have been touched, but I still wanted an actual answer rather than a guess. TBM is harder than TDS at 105; more breaking news at 11.

    What's more interesting is that TDS HA scaling appears to have been glossed over (for now). The tests on the Warrior show those are clearly using old scaling values instead of the new RoS ones. While the 110 TDS HA NPCs are definitely stronger than they would be at 105, they have low amounts of HP and almost half the DPS output of the ones using RoS scalings.

    tl;dr - Prior to 106, HA's do not use the new RoS scalings that bring NPCs up to Tier 1 RoS NPC strength. TDS HA's are still using the old scaling values even at 110.
    Genoane, eepok, Sancus and 3 others like this.
  17. Picaresque Augur

    Gotwar, awesomeness. Thank you.
  18. Gana Augur

    I do appreciate the comprehensive analysis, but iirc, Disrupting the Ritual is a Gribbles HA. Gribbles HAs are harder than they were, but still very doable. Whether they were "properly tuned" or "over tuned", I think your post implies they were "properly tuned". Did you test a non-Gribbles...such as a Cooper Excavating an Answer? As I said previously, I am stuck in TDS (105, no gear past TDS, no AAs, nothing) and the "tuning" greatly increased the difficulty. The first step required me to clear yellows and whites to get to a red Captain who spawns a blue add every 20%. That captain had over 20 million HPs. And that was just the *first* of two captains that had to be killed...on the first step of the mission. Is that normal for a level 105 CotF mission? With the same group that wiped in that HA, I have cleared all named on Brothers Island multiple times (for armor, augs, etc) without issue. This HA is *much* more difficult than Brothers Island nameds. I believe that to be inappropriate, thus my assertion that it is over tuned.
  19. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Did you parse things to see how many hp the mobs have before and after the tuning change occurred? If the scaling has changed mob levels may have remained the same and yet the mob stats change.

    Thanks for doing that testing. So basically hitting 106 does it. I guess my recomendation to anyone in my guild who hasn't bought ROS yet is to finish all their progression in situations other then TDS and there it is more of a wash. That pretty much sucks. So basically you can plan to do everything without any 106+ players joining you or remain under level 106 until you do all the progression you want to do because its much healthier for the game if players keep dont get to max level and group with everyone else. Hell of a choice.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  20. xeveq New Member

    [Look away, WoW haters.]

    I only skim this thread once a day and don't care enough to backtrack a few pages to figure out why this is relevant, but this is incorrect all on its own. WoW's introduction of level scaling is fantastic but also more limited. Entry level zones that previously held mobs ranging from 1-10 now scale up to 60 and cap there, so a level 80 in the zone will only find level 60 mobs - you certainly can't "create a level 1 character and stay in the first zone their entire life, killing bears and snakes and rats, and hit max level."
    Every mob in the game does not scale to your level, rather the level cap on mobs depends on the zone.

    These changes have absolutely nothing to do with EQ and stem from longstanding complaints (dating back to at least 2008) that leveling paths were too fixed and too quick. Previously you could out-level almost any particular zone by completing only a handful of quests and never see the dozens of others that provided rich storylines and unique fun events.

    Despite WoW's "new" scaling (the most recent expansion used this technology for the past year and a half), players can still 1-2 shot most open world mobs; the scaling changes haven't impacted the difficulty much at all.
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