Rare Creature Expectations

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Brontus, Sep 12, 2022.

  1. Iyacc Augur

    Even if they spent the time/money to go back and itemize "rare" creatures and give them "unique" or "rare" drops, I don't think many would care. The main reason being that most drops off "rare" creatures aren't useful in era or not for any length of time.

    It's been my experience that TLPs in general are top heavy. People level much faster than before, in most cases. Those people then raid a lot and are exposed to the top end of drops quicker and more often. Except in the case of specific focus effects or melee needs, most people will take a higher level/stronger item as often as possible.

    We're all used to most non-raid drops being complete garbage in era, in most expansions. (I said most, not all) The few exceptions are the ones everyone goes for if/when there's time.

    Having said all that to say this... If DPG was going to itemize all the missing rare items from the rare creatures list that you feel require them - how useful would most/any of them be? That would be consistent with most early expansions. I can't say much about the last half of expansions because I haven't played them yet, so someone else correct me if I'm wrong in the later game.

    So for the original topic I would have to say 0 out of 10 - would not recommend.
    Brildon likes this.
  2. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    I can't disagree with you about the general lack of usefulness of non-raid loot. However, having garbage loot that is not really useful serves no purpose. It also creates an unintended effect of players feeling they've been ripped off and shortchanged. There's far too much straight to vendor twink loot dropping at least in the first 6 expansions. All this philosophy does is end up herding players into the same dungeons and when they get there, they find out professional farmers are there.

    The original post was about player expectations that rare creatures should drop loot. I think most MMO players (outside of these status quo mindset endemic to these forums) have similar expectations. If that gets an 0/10, then I'm not sure what else to I can say to convince you that MMOs should strive to give players consistent expectations on fundamental mechanics from expansion to expansion.

    MMORPGs are works in progress. A MMO is never finished. The devs routinely go back and fix/nerf things all the time. There is no statute of limitations in MMO development. An unfixed bug that has existed since 1999 is still an unfixed bug in 2022. The age of a bug does not immunize it from being a bug.

    Going back and itemizing rare creatures that were not previously itemized makes sense, especially when you consider that most of EQ's revenue comes from releasing annual TLP servers. Why subject players to the needless confusion and expectation subversion created by rare creatures that are not itemized?

    For what it's worth, every video game I have worked on, me and my fellow designers would do all we can to fix outstanding bugs. With platforms like Steam, digital updates/patches for non-MMOs are a fact of life. It's a matter of professionalism and the pride of craftsmanship that you do all you can to create a high quality product.
  3. SoandsoForumUser Augur


    You not liking a design decision doesn't make it a bug. The only bug I'm seeing is in your wetware that makes you think this is a pressing issue in EQ. A grand total of zero people are showing up new to EQ, running to TT, killing a random name and loudly declaring 'I quit, that 30 second fight gave me nothing but exp and coin, just like 99% of the other things I kill!' Instead of just shrugging and going 'guess that guy doesn't drop anything.'
  4. Treeconix Elder

    Loot mechanics have been consistent from expansion to expansion. There are named mobs in classic that don't drop loot. Eventually no named mob doesn't drop loot, which resolves your next point:
    Named npcs not dropping loot isn't a bug, not matter how much you say it is. It was a design choice.

    False. If this were the case they wouldn't develop expansions requiring 6-8 months' worth of dev time.

    Good for you. However, your topic is still not a bug fix request. It's an enhancement to original design.
  5. Iyacc Augur


    I don't think player expectations are the same across the board. That's probably part of the issue. For every person who thinks you are right and they should itemize missing drops, there's at least one other that thinks that's a waste of time - IMO.

    I think the expansions are fairly consistent long term. There's rare creatures in many expansions with no drops. There's also drops in many expansions that are absolutely useless in the grand scheme of things except for that subset of players that literally doesn't use anything they don't loot or make themselves.

    I'm not against you wanting them to fix something you feel is done incorrectly, I just don't agree that it's really a problem. I feel like the time spent on it would be a waste if they stayed consistent with item levels/power for those expansions and that at that point it's a waste of developer effert.

    I think as has already been answered, later expansions have rare creatures specifically for the purpose of being part of the hunter achievements. The rewards(worth it or not) are given at the end of the achiev, not as drops for each rare creature.
  6. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    That might be what it means today but that is not what it mean when those creatures were created.
  7. Tweakfour17 Augur

    But was the rare tag added before hunter achievements or FOR hunter achievements?
  8. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    There was not but from what I understand most of those that got the tag were already setup as being a rare spawn that had placeholders that controlled when it spawned. Similar to how modern rare mobs worked just without the loot.
  9. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    You don't know if it was a design choice, until we get a definitive explanation from the devs, you are just speculating and being contrarian.

    My original post was about player expectations with regard to rare creates and named mobs. I wager most normal, non-forum, rank and file MMORPG players have a reasonable expectation that rare creatures drop loot. Period.

    Using your logic, anyone could justify any boss mob such as Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen not dropping any loot whatsoever.

    Let's also apply your apologist logic in other areas of MMORPG design:

    Would it be acceptable for some creatures to give experience and others not to give experience?

    Would it be acceptable for some creatures to have false consider information to the players?

    Would it be acceptable for some creatures to give inexplicable factions gains/hits to players?

    Would it be acceptable for creatures to have overpowering abilities such as giving orc pawns the ability to death touch players?
  10. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    I posted my concerns on the TLP server sub-forum for a reason because this oversight affects TLP more than it does EQ live players. There's nothing more disappointing than killing a "rare creature" only to find out that is has not been itemized.

    EQ players should not have to go to 3rd party websites to look up a rare creature to see if it drops anything or not. Players should simply be able to consider a rare creature and instantly know that it will drop uncommon/rare loot. Just like players who also attempt to solo reds should understand that they will probably die in the effort.

    Fantasy virtual world design 101 is all about creating a world that players can get emotionally invested in and that requires them to suspend their disbelief and giving players consistent expectations is a big part of that. Even virtual worlds need consistent physics, mechanics, and rules. This is why I'm against the design cop out of levitation not functioning in certain zones and no believable explanation is ever given.

    As a TLP player, I personally consider new expansions a waste of developer time. But that doesn't mean devs should stop making them.

    Not everything is about the cost benefit analysis of whether it's a waste of time and money. Some things are worth doing because it is right and correct to do them. There are a handful of video game studios that have a philosophy of excellence where even small details matter. This is a long-term strategy that pays off in the long run with fanatical player loyalty and millions of dollars in profits.

    When the devs shoehorned achievements into EQ and designated some mobs rare creatures, it would have been the perfect time to itemize all of them. Why they did not do this, is a mystery.

    What exactly is the criteria for a rare creature? Why is Pyzin flagged as rare but Hadden and Holly Windstalker are not? Why does non-rare Hadden drop an item, but non-rare Holly not drop an item?

    As a game designer, not a day goes by when I see things in EverQuest classic that are unfinished, ill-conceived, and frankly inexplicable and wonder how it is after 23 years nothing has been done to address the problem. That lamppost suspended in air in Halas near the zoneline to Everfrost is a prime example. You don't even have to be a game designer to realize this, all you have to do is simply play the game.
  11. Iyacc Augur

    This is a strategy or business decision that was made 23 years ago. It's easy with later technology to say everyone should do it better for the sake of it being perfect.

    And yes, it's always about the money.

    cost vs benefit - it was either given very little to no thought about reitemizing OR someone said - it would cost too much for the small benefit

    I would be willing to bet there's no consistent answer to this across the game and probably even within the same expansion most of the time.

    I would be willing to bet that most people playing EQ either don't feel that any of this is a big enough problem OR they don't even give it any thought. If you want to get people up in arms to get something fixed - find a "bug" that effects a raid. Even then if the majority of the raiders and guilds have figured out how to beat said target, then even that may not get the masses riled up.

    Example - OMM in Anguish - there's half a dozen or more bugs that happen in this fight or room. Since they almost never cause people to missout on loot or not be able to win the fight, even that doesn't get more than a chuckle when it happens at this point. I don't think most of us care about rabbits not dropping rare carrots or lamps not having a post to hang on.

    Again - you're not wrong to feel how you feel, I just personally don't think enough others feel the same way to see resources pointed in that direction. We also won't change each others minds at this point. :)
  12. Treeconix Elder

    You can reasonably come to the conclusion it was an intended design choice because it happens quite often in earlier eras. Because it's not a one-off occurrence, but extends through multiple zones, continents, and eras, you cannot reasonably flag it as a bug. In order to deem it a bug, you must know that it:

    1. Previously did drop loot on live servers and no longer does.
    2. Know that it does have a loot table (from beta testing or test server) and it is not on live.
    3. It is the only named in existence that doesn't drop loot and you reasonably assume it is a bug.

    Otherwise, you cannot conclude a bug being present.
    Have you seen what they drop? Based on logic, I may as well call the utter junk they drop a bug because you can find better gear dropping in mid level group camps.
    There are literally mobs you will run into in this game which con within your level that provide such low amount (or no experience) they aren't worth grinding. These NPCs are parts of quests and whatnot or con as "relatively weak." They are a conscious design choice by the devs to not provide experience. So you question is yes, I find it acceptable.
    See above. Before they revamped the con messages, there were definitely mobs of equal player level that were much more difficult/easier than initial expectations.
    If there was multiple npcs with this precedence, sure. However, this doesn't exist. Not really the same question.
    Have you visited Plane of War...ever?
    Hadden doesn't have a PH iirc. Pyzjn does. As for loot, well, as you already know, original EQ devs were not consistent. You also decided, deliberately, to select a couple very peculiar NPCs to use an example. What a misleading rhetorical question.

    Just accept the fact that they were novice game developers at the time. I think maybe you need to spend some time outside of classic where consistency and overall better (standardized) game design is relevant.
  13. Brontus EQ Player Activist

    My intent was not to mislead. My intent was to illustrate the lack of uniformity with how named creatures operate in EQ. If anything, those examples weaken my argument a bit. I was just trying to be fair and show how confusing rare creatures and named mobs are across the board.

    As a game designer, I am trained to look at video games through the eyes of non-designers and new players. New players especially will not be so forgiving of a MMORPG that lacks consistency in their rules and conventions. You only have 15 minutes to hook a new player, so focusing on the new player experience is critical. If you can't get new players to play, your game fails and your game will never last as existing subscribers leave and/or pass away.

    It's hard enough to get players to suspend their disbelief in a fantasy world without confusing them with arbitrary rules and conventions. Yes, veterans like us know how EQ works, but new players and existing MMO players will not and will not take kindly to all the inconsistencies.


    I think that's the first thing you've said on these forums that I 100% agree with.

    While the original EQ designers were complete newbies and made a lot of mistakes, there is no reason that the current dev team can't revisit the original EQ and earlier expansions to correct some of the shortcomings. Think of it like a automobile recall. Often major car manufacturers will recall vehicles that are many years old because they found some flaw in the design that can cause problems.

    With each expansion, the creative team kept changing and with it the vision of EQ. One expansion, charm is okay; the next expansion it is bad. Monks are bad in one expansion; they are horrible the next. Over the years, I don't anyone would dispute that the developers were inconsistent in both their vision and implementation. One might even speculate that the new developers never bothered to read the original design document to ensure future cohesion and instead made things up as they went along.

    I'm hoping we get a new version of EQ someday. But it's possible that that may never happen. Until then, I'm going to continue to lobby the devs to fix the things that I believe need fixing.