Raids, pure melee, hybrids and dps

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Dega, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. Elricvonclief Augur

    Pally DPS needs a boost...
  2. Ronak Augur

    Can't boost it much more without classifying you as a boss mob!
  3. Izcurly Augur

    I don't think there are, actually. But go ahead and name one, if you can.
  4. Tanecho Augur

    Name any class that doesn't have a fade. That's a class that can FD and not fade, since FD is bottled now.
  5. Izcurly Augur

    Already did, if you'd beeen reading. Beastlord. The guy said there were others, I disagreed.
  6. savrin Augur

    Beastlords have a good chance to lose agro. They cannot fade like a bard can or anything similar. Their fd is 90% only and they can easily get hit by a spell and it immediately fails. When I think of fade, I think of bard fade. Losing agro is not the same thing to me.

    As far as raid parses go...monks beat beastlords in burn siutations every time(think sarith or valley). There just happens to be a lot of fight that last much longer than monk burns do so a beastlord that is a good player can catch up to monks and overcome them if the fight lasts long enough. There are also anti-burn mechanics in many more raids now. Not sure if monks were intended to be a high sustained dps class. But beastlords are supposed to be, where other classes are awesome at burning.

    I would never agrue that beastlords should be competitive with monks on burns. But heck yes to sustained they should competitive with everyone except necromancers since all other classes have better burns than beasts do.
  7. Danille Augur

    Actually its not my post count that went up, but the number of "likes"
  8. Tanecho Augur

    I don't see monks beating beastlords short duration. If anything, I see monks closing the gap on them during longer fights.
  9. Brogett Augur

    Fade isn't the same as FD - it's more akin to rogue escape or bard fading memories.

    Ironically giving every class fade was a huge boon for rogues! We'd been asking for years for a faster Escape timer and never getting it. Then voila every man, woman and his dog has an similar style ability on a vastly reduced timer, so rogue Escape (belatedly) got a fix.

    Point being - sometimes giving abilities to others can also lead to a boost in your own class. Maybe you can justify an improvement to FD or similar on the back of other classes gaining power. It's all about putting a positive spin on things and a good justification, rather than crying foul.

    Brog

    PS. Regaridng the original topic though, I agree that hybrids that are a mix of utility and dps, or heal and dps, tank and dps, etc should never be as powerful at dps as a non-hybrid class, never as good at healing as a true healer, etc. Very close is fine, but not as good or better IMO or it make the other class seem weak in comparison. (I'd never say worthless as someone else gaining an ability doesn't mean you can no longer do your job.)
  10. Tenken Augur

    Sony probably already know about the beastlord being good dps and probably is where they want them to be, because that is the reason why we didn't get an upgraded version of Bale's maelstorm spell. Sure, Beastlord is high, but the only reason why is because its a pet class. When it comes to dps, It's
    (1.5 player vs 1 player) that high parse is because you factor in the pet damage that is the only reason why they seem so high. Right now when it's just (good) beastlord(minus pet) vs (good) zerker/rogue/monk, Zerker/rogue should be on top, Monks should be equal or just below the beastlords. Now, when you throw in the pet damage, Beastlords can give rogue/zerker a run for there money(people know what they are doing) Zerkers and rogues should be on top most of the time. Well, Monks are in the same boat as the warriors when it comes down the the balancing of the classes. So honestly, there shouldn't nerf anyone, but to buff up the monks to be just above the beastlord.

    By just nerfing, your not going to fix anything, it will just cause more problems for another class to *itch about an asking for another class to nerf. So, only option is to buff up the other classes that needs to be buffed(Monks and warriors)
  11. sojuu Augur

    Necro, or SK 2 more classes with fd
  12. sojuu Augur

    Why should beasts be competitive with everyone except beastlords? Beasts get heals, slows, paragon, ADPS, and now FD. Lets see what do monks get? Mend(most classes have a way of healing themselves now), FD(which was farmed to every other class now), known for pulling(pulling is dead now days because there are no situations you need a good puller really anymore), and DPS. But wait now were falling behind everyone including beastlords in dps. How can anyone deny monks need help?

    Beasts should be falling between shaman and monk dps not passing monk dps. Monks are the parent class not beasts.
  13. sojuu Augur

    I wish this was the case monks have been asking for improved imitate death for the longest time and were always told no. And now every class has a fade or fd ability to loose agro and we still recieved nothing.
  14. Recnarp Augur

    Didn't we just have this discussion that healing isn't effective? Go try and keep a group alive with a beastlord. Slow and the 1 adps ability that we do have is nice, you're absolutely correct. Fpara is crap, always has been since the return values do not scale well with expansions where players have 90k+ mana pools. Para is nice, but can only be MGB like every half hour and every 10min on a targeted group. Maybe you knew that already, but I'm trying to get it through to others that just because you can see the abilities we have as a hybrid, they aren't nearly as useful as they sound.
  15. sojuu Augur

    What I am getting at is you have all this stuff, and what do monks get? You can keep yourself up just like we can in a pinch plus you can help keep others up in a pinch. Para you get to do it one more time for a raid per 1/2 hour or 10 min or a targeted group than we can. You have one more ADPS ability than monks have. You can slow better than monks can. You can snare better than monks can. You now have a FD like monks do. Now your doing more DPS than a monk can. Ok where is the balance here with monks being the parent class?

    Im not asking for them to take your dps down im asking for monks to be boosted above you and closer to zerker/rogue dps as it should be. And seeing how most of our defining abilities are farmed out to every other class I dont believe it is too much to ask.
  16. shiftie Augur

    parent classes are all dead. Everyone is a hybrid.

    The pure melee in this thread droning on about hybrid this/ hybrid that. The days of you not casting spells are over. Between activated aa and yellow mana bars claiming you should hold some edge over a blue caster is absurd on the basis of parent vs hybrid.

    One could make an argument for comprehensive utility vs pure dps. But it is safe to say every "pure" class now has multiple versions of utility.

    Monks are a far cry away from the red headed step child. Should they do more dps than a beastlord? Maybe. Should they be on par with rogues/zerk doubtful as 30 second mend and impend say otherwise.
    Ronak likes this.
  17. Stubar Augur

    I couldn't agree more. Perhaps a new thread titled that would be more productive than this pi**ing match. This thread is being beaten to death. As I said earlier, the damage has been done. I have zero doubt that the devs have already spoken to each other about this.No one is arguing the fact that Monks NEED HELP.

    What the OP really said was that he feels he (a rogue I'm going to assume) shouldn't be getting beat by a hybrid He may or may not be right. Who are we to say? Did the devs intend that to happen? Has the hybrid (bst as it seems to be the protagonist in this thread) been given a defining roll of DPS? We have never really had a "true role". Until it's addressed by a dev, no one will ever know for sure.

    All I can really say to the OP is that, if he were in my guild, and I found out it was him making all this drama towards a class that helps him DPS better...I'd be making sure that Fero, GBA and RF "accidentally" missed him. Not out of spite, merely to show him that it's not okay to step on your fellow guildmates/players feet and expect no reciprocation. We all love to see our parse be high, but at the end of the day this is a game and there are real people sitting behind the keyboard wanting to enjoy themselves and it's people like that just drain away that sense of fun and enjoyment.



    Soooo, now that I'm done my rant, my suggestion is get all the monks together on serverwide or any monks you know, and start a thread and make it count, MAKE THE DEVS LOOK AT IT. Anyone remember the warrior "strike"? Very VERY effective. So much wasted energy in this thread.
    Dega, Recnarp and Iila like this.
  18. Tanecho Augur

    This is all personal conjecture from me, I do not play a BL but I was around when they were introduced.

    I always envisioned the beastlord as the hybridization of a monk and a shaman, not just in the parent class sense but in the balance of their role. In older times, they were mostly defined by their new buff (SA, whatever it is called today), their ADPS ability (originally ferocity, but it has reached a point where it is always on so now the fury line is their ADPS), and later paragon, but all the while doing lower damage but still a meaningful amount. That role has been greatly muddled over the years with the deteriorating value of their mana buffs, and I hope they get a more clear direction in the future. The large increases to DPS seems to indicate the role is shifting more toward a direct damage one, which I personally have no issue with.

    Of the classes that do damage, I think there are 4 that do that as their primary purpose (rogue, berserker, wizard, necromancer) and they should be a cut above the rest (but not a chasm). Just below them are their counterparts (monk, magician) that have damage as the majority of their purpose, but their ability to absorb damage (monk through discs and mend, magicians through their strong pets) puts them slightly below the pure DPS classes. Below them are the more hybridized classes, the ranger and the beastlord, who offer larger sets of utility (beastlord with their powerful ADPS abilities, the ability to restore resources to others, and their pet, ranger with a strong set of rooting/snaring abilities and sturdiness, in addition to their MGBable ADPS abilities). Below them are the ADPS classes (bard, enchanter), who contribute some damage personally, but contribute a large amount of damage when paired with the right classes.

    Now, there are a lot of improvements I see that could be made, without nerfing other classes.

    Monk DPS, as many have mentioned, is sorely lacking.
    Beastlord paragon is not scaling well, it likely needs some upgrades.
    Enchanter/Ranger ADPS abilities are lackluster.

    So on and so forth. The primary reason for many in the monk community complaining, is that we have little to compensate for a lack of DPS in most raid situations. Sometimes moving mountains makes us useful, but that's about it.
    Stubar and Savager like this.
  19. Zahrym Augur

    tl;dr stubs kisses dudes
    Apex likes this.
  20. Apex Elder

    ^This Thread
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