Raids - How hard should they be?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mezz, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. segap Augur

    First of all, for RoS raids, it should be RoS T2 group gear (perhaps the tanks would use some T1 non-visible items as some slots have more AC for some odd reason) for your scenario. Some work is required if you want to raid latest content in group gear -- e.g. getting the latest group gear.

    Secondly, many of these raids can be beaten with less than full raids. If you want to do them in group gear, then make sure you have a full raid force. That makes up for possibly needing more tanks or more healers. You just need dps that actually does their job somewhat near their potential (lesser gear taken in to account) for smaller forces and a roster tilted more towards tanking/healing. And while such a raid force is working on getting all the flags to enter t2 RoS raids, they can be using their extra raid schedule to beat EoK raids and be getting EoK raid gear (needed to make the RoS visibles anyhow). Raiding does require some character development through gear, augs, AA and such.
  2. Atvar Augur

    That's still effectively 3 players down at all times. It wouldn't surprise me if there are more TBM eye augs on retired characters than active ones. How many guilds make it a point to go back and do this stuff for new members? How many guilds besides the top few have even a chance to recruit players with this already done?
  3. Bobsmith Augur

    It is relevant because you can give crappy players great gear and they still suck. Before you rant on and on I'm not in any way saying you or anyone you know is crappy. I only stated a fact. Now to the contrary one of the best mages I know is slightly under geared and augged, but he will still smash a parse all day....mage you know who you are :) .
    As to your point about tanks, yes you are correct that tanks are more gear centric just by design. But again gear doesnt make a tank. If said tank doesn't know how to push buttons in the best order he could have all the gear and still get rounded by TBM raid bosses let alone ROS.

    So next time read what is written, press the right buttons and you will see relevance. :p
  4. Bobsmith Augur

    And there is a 12 man "mini raid" mission in Ros. But if it hasn't happened yet there will be crying about how it is locked behind progression and all players must be flagged and it is too hard.
  5. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    well, now that you mention it... LOL
  6. Tornicade_IV Augur

    did you not my original post. I said the current top group gear for that expansion.

    so basically your arguing that you agree

    now you guys are taking a base suggestions and adding things that were never asked for nor implied.

    I said that there should be a tier of raids with every expansion tuned around a raid force with the top group gear of that expansion.

    and that tier shouldn't be required for overall raid progression and there is plent of space between T1 raid raid gear and Tier 2 group gear to itemize rewards for these raids.

    The idea here is that it gives mid tier raid guilds content they can raid on opening day. it would also allow them to gear up at a rate to reflect their higher turnover rate.

    as far as a 12 man mini raid . it drops Tier 2 Group gear. and is not a complete set of itemization

    If were gonna use ROS as an example. there would be 5 or 6 raids that have their own currency . These would drop 5500 hp gear which is well under the 6500 hp gear from ROS raids

    Ranting ?
    I am suggesting raid content designed for the current expansion group geared player base.

    do you believe that a group geared raid force can take on the same content you do without the previous expansions raid gear?

    Your trying to turn this into a subjective discussion.

    Current raid content is tuned around previous content raid gear.
    doesn't matter how skilled your buddy is in at whipping out DPS. if he is truly undergeared that means he isn't living long enough to whip out that DPS.
    lets go with 21 slots.

    21 slots of 4k gear is a base 84k hp
    15 slots of 5500 hp gear is 84kp that's still a 24k difference for someone partially raid geared.
    Enough to take another 24k ae.

    Also nowhere did I suggest that these raids ... well not be raids. Raids should have penalties for people not following the raid mechanics...

    The base principle here is to revive the Raid game with some of the base principles that made it popular when pop was released not just exclusive current content for the big 12.

    It would be nice to see one expansion get it right ( because they have made some attempts in the past)
  7. Jumbur Augur

    I think DBG expects new raidforces in group gear to beat EoK raids first, seeing as beating EoK tier3 is much faster than relying on RoS-backflags(as well as the velazul->scaleborne gearpath).

    A raidforce in RoS-tier2 group-gear(or conflagrant) has a realistic shot at EoK-raids(focus might be lower but they are 5 levels higher to make up for it).
    RoS doesn't really have a reasonable "entry-point" for people who wants to skip EoK, which is reflected in the available gear-paths and raid-progression.

    Personally, I think RoS should have been a bit more "stand-alone" expansion-wise. :(
  8. segap Augur

    I believe I did read what you wrote:

    Color added for emphasis.
  9. Sancus Augur

    Right, and we both know all these raids are beatable down 3 players.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't be a benefit if guilds went and got the augs, but it's not why they're lacking DPS. They'd probably benefit a lot more by having every player dedicating 10 hours or w/e to researching their class and parsing than by spending 10 hours (or 20 or w/e) as a raid finishing all those TBM achs.

    That's the thing with gear in general - does it add a few % (or even 10% or w/e) here and there? Yes, but it doesn't fix fundamental issues in player ability. If a guild is struggling with the DPS on Queen, and you handed them max RoS gear/TBM eye augs/etc, they'd still have a DPS issue on Queen.
    Maedhros and Bobsmith like this.
  10. Mezz Lorekeeper

    We seem to be getting off track. There are plenty of reasons why weaker raid guilds are behind elite guilds. That will always be the case. My argument has been that some of the T1 raids should be targeted more for these weaker guilds so that we don't continue to lose raid forces. T2 and T3 raids can be as hard as they are to keep the elite guilds happy. Easier T1 won't make the elite guilds complete raid content any faster. They are already beating it in 3 months at the higher difficulty anyway.
  11. Bigstomp Augur

    EoE could be a bit rough. I feel Cactus should be doable. Gorowyn is almost a gimme (assuming people can operate a map)
  12. Bigstomp Augur

    On casual raids my alt cleric healed the tank and out parsed some rangers during hate.
    No amount of gear would have made those rangers not suck.
    Attention would have.
    feeltheburn and Bobsmith like this.
  13. Remslaren New Member

    Now this is done with 3 peeps and a couple mercs lol.
  14. Tornicade_IV Augur

    the only way to make them easier to to tune them to a different gear set. meaning outside of normal progression.

    Prior expansions especially when a level is increased should automatically be easier since you have five levels more than what ya had initially.

    Mid tier guilds are always gonna have a high turnover and the only way to offset that is by over recruiting . that is a fine balance.

    Essentially though any mid tier raiding gear is gonna be at core 20-24 who do the major lifting. these are the guys with max aa, the best augs and the ones who the big 12 will open their gates for.

    The class makeup of this core will vary from guild to guild and basically set the tone for the guilds raiding. Tank heavy... the guild will plow through content and struggle with dps orientated events.. DPS Heavy. these guilds will struggle with tank heavy events. etc.

    Eventually these guys get tired of being held back and either move on or retire. mid tier guilds just hope its not a bunch in a short time span.

    The next 12 are the in between guys. These are guys who don't have the max aa, or they have a mish mash of gear . whatever it is they aren't the complete package

    the rest are fillers that raid leaders hope just do their basic role and don't miss raid penalty mechanics. they serve a purpose but a very limited one.. these guys don't exist in the big 12. if they do . they don't last very long.

    they are also hard to tune for, so the developers don't.

    this is where the disconnect comes for guilds raiding the the prior expansion

    seeds of destruction and Underfoot had some bridge raids for Mid tier guilds.

    The problem with the implementation of these bridge raids has either been placement order of the raid itself or that it was required

    That's why I suggested an expansion with a mid tier of raiding tuned to whatever the expansions highest group gear is.
    not to skip expansions but allow a bridge content that isn't raid gear dependent.

    As we saw with ROS they can easily make the the prior expansion progression required for the next tier. because once a mid tier guild falls 2 expansion behind on content they are done barring a guild merger or server merger.
  15. Bobsmith Augur

    NTOV for all expansions. NTOV was
  16. feeltheburn Augur

    I am so very impressed this thread has gone five pages long.
  17. Tiggold Augur

    Nothing needs tuning. We need a server merger so low populated servers can merge and grow their talent base. You raid or you don't. Constantly asking for it to be tuned down so you can beat it is ridiculous. How do you even consider yourself a gamer with that attitude? You either are or you are not. Let's get over it and move on.
    Fohpo likes this.
  18. Fohpo Augur

    Millennial-esque attitude, snuff it out Tiggold. On a side note, my box team could use the big ____ DPS for some missions once I'm out of work today.
  19. Tiggold Augur

    Not sure if I'm logging on tonight or not but I will look for you if I do. This is going to be a crazy week for me. :( -Committing to dps for you though :)
  20. Fohpo Augur

    Work, or raids?

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