Raiding Enchanter Numbers in ToV

Discussion in 'Casters' started by enclee, Apr 21, 2020.

  1. Szilent Augur

    Good enchanters are in demand far exceeding their supply. It is already the case that there's "something in between". Every raid that has three enchanters also includes necros complaining that there isn't four enchanters instead. It's not a strawman fallacy to react to this exact thread we're in wherein enchanters complain that events aren't designed to require their classes' exclusive abilities.
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  2. enclee Augur

    All fair points and enchanters as a class are certainly in demand, we dramatically change the output of a caster group. I agree that it would certainly be bad design to require a single class to complete a raid, but so many of our abilities are farmed out that it wouldn’t be a concern. It is a fair complaint that the class built around crowd control doesn’t get to use any of their toolset. There’s ToFS2 and some banes at the beginning, but if you have any sort of dps the mobs deactivate before they stagger.

    All in all very disappointed this year, but I won’t begrudge anyone that enjoys these events. I just think enchanter numbers are going to drop, further.
  3. Lockdown Elder


    It is a strawman fallacy to get all self-righteously indignant over someone suggesting our class should be considered indispensable when no one said that.

    A strawman fallacy happens when you intentionally misrepresent someone's position, then attack the misrepresented position. Which you did.

    As for the state of the Enchanter, I'm just going by what I see here. I am not part of the endgame raiding experience and never will be. I'd rather eat broken glass than raid. If the class is not useful during raids, which the tenor of this thread seems to indicate, then you should come to a consensus as to what you need to fix things, then push for it.

    I have no complaints about the state of the class (at least not complaints that would make any difference to the issue being discussed here).
  4. Szilent Augur

    see now *that's* the strawman position, only you're using it to prop up your bandwagon "something's wrong" contribution. No one said enchanters aren't useful, because that would be as ridiculous as commenting on modern raiding utility as someone with PoP levels who never even intends to raid. Enchanters are very useful, very powerful. They're just not the kind of powerful that lines up with being indispensable, to which OP attributes an anecdotally observed decline in numbers. In olden, objectively dumber days, enchanter power was 90% thumb up bum waiting to be heroically and irreplaceably vital. It's not that I don't see the appeal, I just think is stupid to take a stance of one's value and one's fun being linked to the bespoke application of such a narrow subset of one's abilities. It's not like there's any shortage of spells elbowing each other for cast time!
  5. enclee Augur

    Yes, Szilent I am dumb for wanting to have my core enchanter abilities challenged just like every other class that raids. The parse doesn’t motivate me. Sure, it’s nice being in the top 8 or seeing my caster group take the top spots.
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  6. Maym_Cazic New Member

    Enchanters are fine; and it's selfish to want entire mechanics dedicated to feeding the ego of a single class.

    I've lately been raiding TBL and ToV and I never feel like I am not contributing. There are even events (moreso in TBL for sure) that greatly benefit from crowd control.

    There is so much more than mezzing to being a good enchanter, and an equally large step beyond that to being a good raiding enchanter.
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  7. yepmetoo Augur

    Complaining that the raids aren't complex enough is fine. They are boring as all sin right now.

    But its not an enchanter issue. Its a bland-people-complained-about-mearatas-so-lets-make-everything-a-joke issue.

    Then you got jackwagons like this "66 non-raiding enchanter" jumping on what you say to try and turn it into "enchanters are awful".

    They could have easily made AoW a great event forcing you to use enchanters, rangers, knights to their fullest for crowd control and dealing with event mechanisms. But they didn't.

    But yeah, I stand by my prior evaluation. Not a very good teammate.

    And that's what raiding in EQ is, its a team hobby, like bowling, softball, flag football, whatever (for adult things anyway). And when you sign up, you sign up to a commitment. There are plenty of single player games out there, and this game isn't one.
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  8. Lockdown Elder


    And the very next post after this explains to you that this actually is their position and I did not misrepresent it.

    I'll take "Egg on your face" for 500, Alex.

    And for my purposes, since I can only really solo at my level, there's nothing really all that wrong. There are things that I would like, but nothing's really broken.

    I'd like the Feedback line continued, especially since they took away the damage shield from Illusion: Fire Elemental. And while we're at it, I'd also like the SoW component back put back in Illusion: Scaled Wolf, and I'd like the attack and strength buffs put back into Illusion: Werewolf. I'd like all the innate abilities that were included in low-level illusions put back.

    I'd like to have an AA that raises our Charisma (for charming purposes) much like the AA that raises our intelligence and wisdom stats.

    I'd like a spell that works like Trickster's Augmentation, a combat innate illusion, but for tanking purposes. We could use it to have someone tank when they aren't a tank class. Or perhaps to help out a baby tank who's having trouble. We have visage spells that do that, but the duration is so short, I'd have to cast it on every pull. The illusion should probably be Ogre, so as not to remove Ogre tanks' slam ability.

    Some years ago, someone on therunes.net had a wild idea that I absolutely fell in love with. His name was Yakk and he suggested a self-only AA called Absor's Transformation. Illusion: Ogre, Silence, HP Buff, Attack Buff, STR buff, haste, damage buff (since we're confined to daggers and maces and staves, oh, my! Daggers and maces and staves, oh, my!) increased aggro, Veil of Mindshadow, etc. Basically, it was a self-only ability that would turn an Enchanter into a tank and prevent us from using our spells for the duration (or until we clicked it off).

    It sounds like the DPS at endgame is taking a serious hit, so perhaps you should push for that, particularly since (if I recall correctly) there are no dual-wielding charmed pets at end game (which is precisely what the Devs want). I remember when I requested that they allow us to tradeskill stacking daggers (like the Napaea daggers and the Potamide daggers) to give to our pets when Magician pet packs aren't available.

    The answer came back that they didn't want charmed mobs that dual wield. They also vowed to remove the drop of the stacking daggers, unless it broke a quest. (Apparently, there is some quest involved, because the stacking daggers are still there.) The tradeskill Dev back then said that charmed mobs did the damage the Devs wanted without the weapons. Needless to say that my request for stacking daggers that we could make with tradeskills was vehemently denied.
  9. kizant Augur

    Charmed pets don't really do DPS anymore but Enchanters do have good DoTs. There's nothing really wrong with their DPS assuming you have the right ADPS.
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  10. Ninelder Augur

    I don't play a Necro, but some of the better Necros I have known prefer bard ADPS to chanters. Not that they usually get a bard either. From what I gather Necros are the least synergistic class. We can ADPS for them with less effect than we ADPS for Wizards and Mages, and they don't ADPS for anyone other class. I have also seen that they get more APDS from Shaman than they do from Druids, with no explanation(aside from what panther?)
  11. Szilent Augur

    Shm vs Dru is a relative contribution deal.

    Dru proc aura gives similar dps to any class that casts detrimental spells, from wiz/mag all the way to sk/rng. Dru Great Wolf, though, multiplies nukes only via crit rate and crit size (so the bigger the base dmg the better); not dots at all, so necros only benefit on the impact of their procs which have relatively small base damage, not their actual spells.

    The proc Dissident you point out probably wouldn't be cast on the shm's own group if placed in a caster group. Pets *can* carry the procs into battle, but at far lower efficiency than, e.g., a tank group that the shm can target np.

    Shm Pact of the Wolf aura is what they'd contribute to their caster group. It's a strong multiplier for pet damage. Especially if a necro is employing Call Skeleton Horde to economize on debuff slots, the damage add can be… dramatic. Shm Pact & Mag Distillect+Theft & Brd Aura together quadruple+ SkeleHorde damage. In no-lag conditions, that can mean millions per cast.

    So in the case that a raid has a multiplicity of shm, but is relatively thin on dru, the Dru would preferentially be placed with a few wizards and mages where their nuke focused ADPS does the most work. Nec miss out on a bit of boost to proc damage, which ain't nothing, but doesn't have "no" tradeoff.
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  12. Ninelder Augur

    Yeah there are other things Bard can do for necros too(I cannot name them, Dot boosts.)

    From what you are saying the Mages would be better off with shaman/bard too. But unlike Necro the Mages do contribute significant ADPS to wizards, and theft of thought is ADPS for every pet in the raid, not just the group, so grouping mages up with Necros might give them more ADPS from Bard/Shaman but actually provide nothing to Necros just from being grouped with them.
  13. Szilent Augur

    The good spell focus adps song Bards have is the same good adps song they run for everyone, Aria. The dot-specific adps songs are, like the nuke-specific adps songs, utter trash. Vesagran & FE & QT are as good for necros as they are for all other casters.

    Magicians have high base damage nuke spells that <3 amplification by Great Wolf. Shm Pact is good for magicians' pets, but Great Wolf is pretty substantially more potent overall.

    Conjurer's Synergy boosting ticks of Klraggek may be quite the thing going forward.

    None of these hypothetical considerations for caster group makeup devalue enchanters in any way. Enchanter adps defines caster raid groups.
  14. enclee Augur

    Nevermind distracted from the general point of my original post.
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  15. Verily Tjark Augur

    Well, I mean it's not THAT bad. However, the raids are so easy that you could stand around and do nothing but buff people, and the raid would still win. It would just take longer /shrug.
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  16. Genusii Journeyman

    As always, a thread about enchanters is now about what classes do what where and how.

    The OP is wondering why enchanter numbers have dropped off during raids.

    I have an opinion:

    On the raiding scene, Silver enchanters do everything Gold enchanters do. When played well, no raid member will see a drop off in enchanter adps. All adps is from aa or spell. Therefore, an enchanter can pay for one or two months of gold to max aa and lvl then go silver. The adps will remain the same for all aa ranks and a slight decline in spell adps (sometimes; depending on procs and such).

    This situation is the same for group content. The enchanter utility has been diminished; the raid gear and money to use it gives no viable return to enchanter group play. Because the group gear and raid gear do almost the same return for the enchanter in both raid and group content, raiding is not rewarding to the class.

    Enchanters that have raided as a main realized that raids were not where enchanters used most of the utility. Raiding was to get gear that made an enchanter able to endure more in group content. This is no longer the case. The utility is no longer there. The gear is not needed. The reward is gone.

    The OP asked why enchanter raid attendance is dropping. I gave you my honest answer from my own experience.
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  17. Pawtato Augur

    I feel bad for enchanters, there's not really much for them to do on raids. For the people saying, there's so much that raiding enchanters need to do to be good, there's really not. It's such a basic role, it's sad.

    I recommend moving to a better more active class.
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  18. Verily Tjark Augur


    I press a lot of buttons... the more buttons I press the more dps I can do and help those around me do. Is it hard? No, it just takes effort. But that's probably the case for a lot of support classes.
  19. Szilent Augur

    It's weird to me you consider other classes' versions of using-lots-of-abilities-to-do-well somehow different & "more" than enchanters' using-lots-of-abilities-to-do-well.
  20. Pawtato Augur


    There isn't really much to use. It's a 3 spell rotation, maybe 4 if you have enough of them to hit alliance. Lead off with bite, proc a somnolence, throw out that mind twist dot, pop iog/ch once or twice. Glyph spray, maybe but probably not. Mental contortion depending on the event.

    If, there's no events that require any cc/banes. I don't know how they manage to stay awake, I assume it's a mix of caffeine and youtube.

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