Raidgear does trivialize Groupcontent to the point of monopolizing large aerea

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Beco, Dec 19, 2020.

  1. Windance Augur

    This is where I would love to see some of the hard earned knowledge getting shared with the community.

    Many of the class specific web sites are nearly dead.
    Nennius likes this.
  2. Celephane Augur

    No, they did not. Someone asked for a harder version of missions to provide more challenge. It was not asked that all group content be made harder, that is ridiculous. Clearly you are not a native English speaker, but that doesn't mean your comprehension should also be suffering. Don't assume things that aren't true...you might also want to avoid exaggerations when explaining your problems.
    Duder likes this.
  3. Sancus Augur

    FWIW, I maintain a (raiding focused) Magician guide here, a list of class guides written by others here, and there is a Magician Discord where a handful of us do actively answer questions here.

    Most class forums are dead; the guides I have linked are from other sources primarily. Most are somewhat dated and some are notably dated, but most are still materially accurate and a good starting point for players looking to improve. While ability names have been updated and some consolidation has happened, the core of most classes (except perhaps those significantly impacted by DoT revamps) hasn't changed too much since EoK given there are fewer resources dedicated to actual class changes.

    I'd definitely love to see more people share information about classes, but I would also encourage people to actually apply the resources that do exist and to ask questions of others.
    Sissruukk, Jondalar, Kuvani and 4 others like this.
  4. Puzzling Journeyman

    What ever happened to the days, of finding someone that you wish you were more like, and looking into...

    What they cast
    When they cast it
    What order they cast things in...

    GP is pretty solid for this sort of information

    Like many people have pointed out, raid gear is nice. But if you haven't figured out what your doing, you're still going to be circling the drain.

    I have met a lot of people playing this game, and I have played more than a few classes, none of which I have claimed to have "mastered" but I could play more than a few of them beyond what most people are capable of. It comes down to how you learn, how you adapt, and how much effort your willing to put into what you do.

    Most are very happy to just ride others coat tails, or say that they are "good enough" to do what they want to do.

    I know people who are "said" to be amazing, and I wouldn't spend a minute listening to them. They can't be bothered to keep simple things up, they don't "like" certain spells/abilities. It's just another form of laziness, and in time it shows that they aren't as good as they were perceived to be.

    At the end of the day the excuses you make to justify your case, only illustrate your lack of skill/knowledge.
  5. Cadman Elder

    Yep, Tanks totally just hit auto-attack and go make a cup of tea... o_O

    Those days are long gone, a good tank is far more than just a sack of AC and Hitpoints. There's probably close to 30 abilities I have on an almost constant rotation, likely more.
    Skuz and Yinla like this.
  6. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]

    Saying raid gear is 15% better AC than group gear is technically accurate, but the effect is not just 15% better. EQs damage formulas work out to a 'sliding window' where a given AC vs ATK roll goes from always minimum damage to always maximum damage; so only values within that narrow band of AC make a difference.

    That 15% of group vs raid AC covers a very large part of that narrow band between being quadded for max damage every time and 3 misses and a hit for minimal.
    Kumudil and Windance like this.
  7. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer


    Can we just sticky the above passage in Veteran Forums? :)
  8. Bigstomp Augur

    A max raid geared tank vs a max group geared tank who both push their buttons properly. I'll probably have to rez the group geared tank once more per week.

    A maxed out tank who somehow got there without knowing how to press buttons you cannot even measure.
    They will die before the parser can give any meaningful data.
  9. Slasher Augur

    I've talked to mages/wizards/druids who dont even have the twincast spell i think that says enough about your average group player in EQ.

    For the record tanks have defensive disc for a reason if you never use them whats the point of the disc ? Try using a defensive disc vs 3 non mezzable trash mobs you will be shocked at how easier you're to heal.
    Duder likes this.
  10. Bigstomp Augur

    No! I need to save my disc that is usable for 3 out of every 10 minutes for 2 hours from now when we get a named mob.
    Metanis likes this.
  11. Sancus Augur

    This has elements of truth to it, but is mostly inaccurate. First, the AC stat only affects Mitigation AC. Mitigation AC determines distribution between the 20 possible hit values a mob has; it cannot increase the number of incoming misses.

    As you mention, average hit has a ceiling and a floor of DI 20 and DI 1, respectively. When mitigation AC is equal to Offense, the distribution somewhat resembles a reverse bell curve. DI 1 and DI 20 are much more frequent than the other hit values and equal in frequency. The remaining hit values are somewhat even; the distribution between them evens out in longer parses. For reference, here's a ToV T1 raid geared Shadowknight tanking with a shield against a forgotten vanguard in Western Wastes, which has an approximately even DI distribution:

    [IMG]

    Past the point where mitigation AC is equal to ATK, mitigation AC has diminishing returns. The rate at which returns diminish appears to be based on the NPC's offense (the higher the ATK, the larger the nominal AC range where AC is still effective). However, there is not a narrow range where AC is effective prior to reaching this equillibrium. AC scales close to linearly from 0 (where nearly all hits are max hits) to the point where AC = ATK. To show this, here's a graph of RS pet average hit versus a combat dummy between 0 and 8,428 AC:

    [IMG]

    Note that each individual parse is not that long, given this took thirty individual parses to construct. That's why there's some variation in scaling data point to data point. However, you can see above the red line (which is the point where Average Hit = DI 10.5), the scaling is close to linear. That's especially visible for the plot of hit values with Theft of Essence running, given the pet had higher ATK. The higher ATK did not simply shift the graph to the right. Instead, there was slower scaling down of hit values as mitigation increased in a way that's fairly close to linear. There is not a narrow band within which mitigation had a dramatically higher impact. Accounting for natural variation due to the RNG, there's no indication that the marginal benefit of an additional point of AC ever increases as AC increases.

    Pets follow the same ATK and AC rules as other NPCs and players, but one might reasonably want to see a test done with a player in group content. The Shadow Knight I used for this activated no abilities, had weapon stances disabled, had all Vies blocked, and had ToV T1 raid gear and a decent assortment of augs. He would have less than 18% additional AC relative to maxed group geared players given the lower tier of raid gear he had equipped and not having a number of bells and whistles (e.g. no evo items, trophies, etc.). I only did three tests (one at 6,557 AC, one at 7,796 AC, and one at 9,176 AC), but nonetheless here's a similar scatter plot:

    [IMG]

    The trendline for Average Hit is obviously an extrapolation, but you can see approximately linear scaling from close to max hit to the observed values fits the data perfectly and is in line with what the pet hit graph shows. After the 9,176 AC point, the linear association likely does not hold, as there would likely be diminishing returns on AC.

    Certainly, AC does make a difference starting at 6,557 versus these mobs, which is much lower than a CoV TS group geared tank should have. For reference, I asked a full ToV TS raid geared Warrior to log in and check his mitigation AC, and it was 10,350. 84.8% of that is 8,776. A group geared player with that much AC would see linear returns until around 9,000 AC, and if anything raid geared tanks would start to experience diminished returns on mitigation in terms of average hit, though at the point where AC is equal to ATK a significant reduction in "spikiness" can still be derived by further reducing the frequency of maximum hits.

    The TL;DR of this is AC does make a difference until it starts experiencing diminishing returns. There is not a magic range in between where a group geared tank and raid geared tank are where it will have a magically outsized effect on incoming damage.
    Aneuren, Vumad, Cadira and 13 others like this.
  12. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    The community is extremely helpful in this game. If you ask a specific question, you'll almost always get an answer from a knowledgeable player. It's the vague questions like "how do I play warrior better?" that just get glossed over. But nobody is typically withholding advice other than about specific raid event strategies.
    Duder likes this.
  13. Raccoo Awaiting Bobbybick's next forum video reply

    There are many various class guides on http://forums.eqfreelance.net/. You can view them without registering. Most are up to date at least up to TBL/TOV.
    Kels likes this.
  14. Tegila Augur

    While that is a great set of tables etc, there's more to take into account than ac, and you have to compare to tov max group gear, not covax group gear, because that is what the content should be tuned to: what was available at the start of the expansion,and that was not CoV gear.

    Add in the extra heroics(not huge since most is in slot 5 I know, but it's still there) raid Parry block and Dodge on raid gear vs tov group gear, hps on the raid gear vs the group gear(which can take that 4k a hit average difference you noted on the SK, looking at real scenarios of longer fight times due to lower DPS, the raid geared tank more likely having a raid geared healer with rkiii heals and raid heal focii, the proportion a quadded hit at 26k vs 30k of the hps of said tanks (say the group one is 350k and gets quadded for 30k, their health is now 230k, or about 67%, while the raid geared tank at about 500khp gets quadded for 26k their hp is now 396k, or just below 80%. Point is, there's a lot more going on in a raid group vs a group geared group than just ac, and skill plays a BIGGER role in survival. The Dodge/Parry/block means more misses, the hps mean more time before heal necessary, the heroics could mean more mitigation as well, the raid healer has bigger heals and a better chance of returning the tank to 100% at a given time, raid focus bp for knights extends their deflective discipline duration as well, and raid dpd means shorter fights and fewer hits, less time not under disc, etc etc.

    Raid gear itself can vary greatly as you show with your t1 tov raid gear vs t3 raid from tov, so gotta keep all this in mind. What is the average raid gear? Is it fully geared, is it a mix of tiers, etc. What is the average vs max group gear COMING INTO the expansion, not at the end of it (thread velium is max group gear endgame CoV, not what one could possibly start with) since you were comparing to a WW mob, a tier 1 zone, not t2 where CoV gear can and should be accounted for.

    Note: I have tanked raid and group content. I have done group content in raid gear, bad group gear, and good group gear and raid content in group gear and raid gear. There is a big difference all factors considered. There's also a reason the best played group tank doesn't get plopped at the head of the raidtank rotation: gear does matter.(so does skill, as the raid content I've tanked in group gear was due to low skill of the raid geared tanks, but it's not ideal)
  15. Kumudil Journeyman

    Could not explain it as good. Explaining that it's "only 15% AC", and only what "20% more hp" and only how much? "25% more dps" seems to want to make belive, that its overall just some 50% difference between spells and gear, but lot of ppl know, that those thing are far from beeing linear.

    I am not able to caluclate how much theoretically the overall incoming dps-reduction is, but for me it seem by far more than what some want to make belive. Is there really a numbercruncher who want's to state, that the overall effect in damage reduction isn't far more than 50%.

    Please leave away that missleading arguments that most grouptank doesn't know, what defense-disks are for.

    The dps-side is nonlinear as well. Isn't it that melee andalso caster with the stats of raidgear will hit much more often in the upper range of what the possible hits are, than an averange geared grouper.
  16. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Confused.

    I can only think of 1 aug (Nathsar Diamond) that a group only player cannot get that a raid player could (Nathsar Diamond). So I don't understand your final comment about changing the type 7, there is no reason the raid player couldn't do the same thing and keep the difference the same.
  17. Cicelee Augur

    Whenever I feel like I know a lot about Everquest and am feeling smart, all I have to do is read a Sancus post on the Veterans Lounge and realize I know nothing and get put back into my place.
    Metanis, Sissruukk and GoneFission like this.
  18. Kelset Elder


    Interesting and thanks for the information. After looking at this I compared my group geared Paladin who has 7891 mitigation and 3588 avoidance with a +80 dex aug and 7892/3624 with a +80 agility aug in the same armor piece. A 1 point move in mitigation based on your charts doesn't seem to make a difference but does the 36 points in avoidance that the agility aug gives? Trying to determine if its worth moving to agil for more avoidance and have a lower proc rate on the devout rune, healing burst six and Nights endless terror? It's been awhile since I've looked at it but I've always assumed that for current content mobs, avoidance is minimal. Right now I'm about half/half on dex/stam augs.

    https://eq.magelo.com/profile/197105
  19. Cadman Elder

    For a group tank, hDex is the king stat, more parry, riposte, more dps
    Tegila likes this.
  20. Tucoh Augur

    I've parsed a few DI distributions before and can corroborate what you've shown. Once you hit a certain level that extra AC or ATK just isn't moving the needle that much. I try not to think about it and the time i spent grinding chase items.
    Skuz, FawnTemplar and Sancus like this.

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