Raid Warrior gear upgrade

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Windance, Apr 20, 2022.

  1. Qimble Augur

    I thought I had mentioned it already in this thread, I'm a pally. DW is not an option.
  2. Szilent Augur

    sounds like a personal issue you should take up with your counsellor
    Endorek likes this.
  3. p2aa Augur

    First of all, here is what I said about the number of warrior wearing a shield :

    "Of course, ST should be under DW and not shield"

    I will add that other warriors not tanking should be under 2Hander or DW on DPS mode.

    is disinformation

    Secondly, too many quotes to do so I won't do it, but we are being told about the amazing 200 k DPS difference between DW and Shield.
    I decided to calculate how much faster it was allowing you to beat a raid. On ToL events with 800 sec + duration, it makes you win .... 5 sec, so for 9 events on a few hours raids it's 45 sec...
    That's pretty amazing yeah.


    According to me, Shield is doing much more than the ridiculous time difference won by the raid when the MT uses DW over a shield. That's fine though, you can continue believing that these 5 sec make the difference between life and death for your healers.
  4. Gorgasm Journeyman

    The flip side of that, is 200k dps is the *minimum* you'll gain from doing nothing but swapping out a bando. If you have any DPS what so ever you'll do even better. For instance I don't go in a tank group, I go in a DPS group because I'll sustain 1M+ DPS tanking or not.

    It also doesn't take a full aDPS group to do significantly more dps. Another warrior in my guild was hitting around 700k dps last night, and his group war Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Shaman, Bard, Cleric.

    It's also not just about shortening the entire fight, but the most dangerous part of any fight is typically when there are multiple adds going out. There's no reason the MT can't target an add while they're tanking the boss and help DPS the add down. And guess what, getting rid of adds and reducing the *number* of tanks who are currently taking damage is actually a change that *does* take stress off healers and *does* give them breathing room... unlike wearing a shield which does not. It just makes you feel like you're doing something to help them, while you're not.

    EQ is also a game of inches, and your decision making processes rarely exist in isolation. If you're the type of bad brain person who gives up 200k of free dps to get an inconsequential amount of extra mitigation from a shield, you're also probably the same kind of bad brain person who augs for hsta (or even worse, hagi) instead of hdex, who puts stat augs in their weapons, who uses brells instead of ranger buffs, etc. All of these things add up, and the end result of them is very non trivial.
  5. Gorgasm Journeyman

    This should read, if you have any aDPS what so ever.
  6. The real Sandaormo Augur

    I don't think anyone here is talking about a Warrior not actively tanking using a shield. We are only talking about the Warrior tanking the named I thought. Any Warrior not actively tanking should always be 2 Handering or Dual Weilding. The original poster is talking about a guild that has trouble with fielding a full raid and healing is sporatic at best. Shield in this case is more than warranted.

    All these "top" Warriors with all the healing they need, please knock yourself out with 2 handers and Dual Wield.
  7. p2aa Augur

    Bard is doing the most for warrior DPS. A bard is not a part of a classical tanking group though, we run with 4 bards at most, and they go to DPS groups, and we actually have DPS slots to put in DPS groups.

    With a shield, you will take less dmg with an add + boss on you

    That's your opinion, and not a fact.

    Bad brain ? There is a large bunch of warriors who go HSta, and the benefits are real, not going to turn this into another which Heroic stat is best, and calling them "bad brains" is presumptuous.
  8. Gorgasm Journeyman

    They said they're getting 4 clerics on a good night. 4 clerics is basically the ideal number of clerics to have IMO. That's plenty to beat every single encounter in ToL.

    They didn't state how many shaman, druid, or paladins they had to know what the full extent of their healing roster looks like.

    However, they did also say that their overall raid DPS is quite low, which means that 200k DPS will be an even larger % dps bump to their raid than it would in a guild with much higher DPS. Hell, they said they're regularly down 1-2 groups, have some free to play melody boxes with auto grant AA in there and now every group has at least some aDPS and your overall raid DPS just went up as well as your overall raid healing. Not like them dying matters on any fight other than Shei or OoL, if they can't survive those just don't bring them in for those two fights.

    In any case, 3-4 clerics, 2-3 shaman, at least 1 paladin and 1 druid is enough healing to beat everything in ToL, and equipping a shield isn't going to change that. If you're not able to stay alive with that number of healers, then one or more of a few things are happening:

    1. Someone(s) is not appropriately using their abilities, either the tank or the healers, or both and incoming DPS is overwhelming you.
    2. You are massively undeargeared (like.. you're in group armor or 3+ expansion old raid armor).
    3. People are up mechanics and killing you.
    4. Your DPS is not appropriately using their abilities causing the fight to take longer than it needs to, and providing a bigger window where bad luck or one of the above will happen and wipe you.

    Those are all much more foundational problems, and none of them are solved by making bad choices like regularly using a shield, and in fact, (4) is *hurt* by putting on a shield, because warriors are respectable DPS if given any semblance of support. Unfortunately in EQ there's a huge % of people who have no interest in figuring out how to play their class well, or assume that because they've done something for a long time, that makes it the proper way to play their class, and they simply don't want to learn to do better.
  9. Tual Augur

    It's true tho, so he has that goin for him. Warriors that run around with shields equipped 24/7 should just roll a paladin.
    Szilent likes this.
  10. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Cool let me know when someone in your guild streams. I would love to see all the wins with 3 clerics.
    Their are certainly a few events this is very doable on. This could be the new standard going forward, who can do it with the least healing. Which guild can have the most 2 hander Warrior tanks with the least amount of healing. Lets get this going.
  11. Fintank Augur

    You guys don't 2hander tank for half your disc cycle? Papa is disappointed!
  12. Gorgasm Journeyman

    I mean we only have 5 total cleric mains, 2 at 100% RA, 1 at 84% RA, 1 at 58% RA, and 1 at 45% RA.

    Just taking a look at our DKP page, 4/26 we had 3 clerics (+1 box sitting out of zone for currency), 4 shaman (one of which is a box that will basically just spam a multibind on the tank who boxes it, luckily that includes splash), and a druid. That was enough healing for all of Tier 2.

    4/21, 3 Clerics, 4 shaman (same deal with box), and a druid. That would have been Anni Raid + all of Tier 1.

    Looks like we haven't done any Tier 3 with only 3 clerics yet. We haven't been doing PV/CTG much just because they're long fights and with the anniversary raid we decided to do that rather than push our end times super late.

    But there you go, 6/9 + Anniversary Raid with 3 clerics. I'm sure sometime this summer we'll end up doing the other 3 raids with 3.
  13. FranktheBank Augur

    I dont really understand why 3 clerics would be a huge deal.
    Szilent likes this.
  14. p2aa Augur

    Equipping a shield reduces the damage you take, this is a fact. So it's a good choice to use regularly a shield when raid tanking raid bosses. Add the fact we can shield block again now in raid, this is an advantage for shield.

    Any tank class put in a DPS group with ADPS will do respectable DPS.
    You think it's hard to figure how to DPS as a warrior and requires skill ? This is so easy, ADPS is doing all the work lol, there is no skill from the warrior personal tool.
    Do the same things in a tank group, you know a tank group doesn't have bards, it's tank classes and clerics in the majority of guilds, and give us the "amazing" DPS results.
    It's cool that you have 9 bards to fill your raid, but it's a minority of guilds.

    What a big fail, i never said to equip a shield 24/7, rofl.
  15. Szilent Augur

    This is very exactly a "non sequitur"; "it does not follow". The premise here does not lead to the conclusion. The decision on whether or not to equip a shield depends on how much a shield reduces the damage taken, and at what cost. It is the judgement of many that the cost is enormous, and the benefits slim.
  16. Qimble Augur

    I'm gonna guess it's because their DPS is low so they've got more tanks actually tanking for longer and spending more of the raid with secondary defensives running. If you've got the 2nd wave spawning before the first is dead (or mostly dead) on CtG 3 clerics is gonna be rough. In that situation you better hope your knights are great at kiting.
  17. p2aa Augur

    It's also the judgement of many that the bonus protection of a shield outweighs the insignificant time difference of DW on the raid duration, because these boards are far to be a representation of the whole EQ population.
  18. FranktheBank Augur

    Yes and those people are wrong.
  19. The real Sandaormo Augur

    This got me thinking, whats the actual math on this:

    Raid dps = 50 million ( top guilds, somewhere in this range anyways so round it up or down).
    Mob Hp's = Hp's + regen etc all told say you have to do 30 billion damage to kill a named ( again round up or down it doesn't matter )

    War with Shield in: Guild has 30 Billion damage to do at 50 Million DPS = 600 seconds or 10 mins

    War Dual Wield tanking: Guild has 30 Billion damage to do at 51 million dps (generously added 1 mil dps ( over the Shield using tank, 1.3 mil sustained about ) to your Adps Warrior in dps group) = 588 seconds or 9.8 mins or 12 seconds less time. ( 12 seconds I timed out is enough time to eat 1 extra Pizza Roll, if savored, not wolfed )

    Any Warrior not tanking should always be dual wielding or using a 2 hander, that's all built into the 50 million dps though.

    I'm not advocating either is right or wrong but Dual Wield is not changing the game. Judge how "tanky" you feel on any given named for yourself. If your guild is healing you enough then swap , if you feel squishy put your shield in.
  20. p2aa Augur

    No, they are right.