Raid Vanquisher - Why it should be consistently be a big deal...

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Rylak, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. Rylak Journeyman

    First off, let me state that I really like the Achievement system in EQ, so some of this may be biased. With that said, I really believe completing Raid Vanquisher should consistently deliver premium rewards that reinforce the players desire to "min/max". Over the years, while Raid Vanquisher has focused on distributing "raid level" ornaments, it also has culminated in the final level for some really nice item benefits:
    • EoK - Final evolve of the Type 5 Nathsar Diamond (still used in gear 4 expansions later!!)
    • TBM/ToV - fully evolved the heal/DPS Type 3 aug to 10% (TBM was best in slot for 4 expansions, similar trajectory expected for ToV Type 3)
    • TBL - unlocked final evolve level on the 4 chase items that many are still wearing in CoV due to there compatability with Type 18/19 augs (which also so happens to be one of the great character customizations concepts EQ has ever delivered)
    Needless to say, CoV was a bit disappointing to see that only ornaments are given out as the completion prize - something we haven't seen since RoS. Given the improved difficulty of the raids compared to ToV, and the significantly harder achievements that accompany them, this seems like a miss. As I noted above, there is a general timing and cadence to some items which wouldn't make sense to give out in CoV, but this expansion could have easily provided the next iteration of the Nathsar diamond. Some other ideas I can think off in no specific order:
    • A "hidden" 7th level to composite abilities for each class that improves the ability a further 5%
    • A significant release of raid coin - 1000 warforged symbols (good for almost 2 TS ores - very meaningful early in the expansion when ore is still in short supply and coins per win are low compared to the increased price in CoV)
    • An unlocked AA similar to Heroic AAs gained from group content. Could scale from RoF (where Vanquisher was started) to current. Would instantly bring raid replay back to older expansions.
    On a side note, it would also be interesting to see Vanquisher get more acknowledgement in the raid community as the definitive point in which the expansion is truly beaten. Conquerer is nice, and is the current benchmark, but the reality is it's really no more than a time-trial nowadays for the guilds who choose to compete in it and spend the significant time in Beta to get the raids developed for those of us who don't do Beta as much (which is highly appreciated!!!). I'd really like to see a site like give more relevance to this significant guild accomplishment by including it as a secondary ranking.

    That's my 2 cents - interested to hear what others might think....
    Duder, scaethach, Jhenna_BB and 9 others like this.
  2. Behelit Augur

    This, so much this. They could also bring back Titles/Suffixes linked to Vanquisher, but maybe that's just me.
  3. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    While Im not a part of "the racing community", or even the slightest bit competitive, I would also like meaningful and long-lasting vanquisher rewards.
    I recently participated in a bi-weekly open raid arrangement, where we completed EoK-vanguisher(for the type5-aug), and afterwards we did some vanquisher-achievements from both CotF and TdS, where we earned some nice cure clickies.
    We also had a lot of fun! :cool:
    Make the rewards good enough, that even us casuals can use them years later...
  4. Ibudin Augur

    I agree, it was the reason Meratas was a huge deal to complete - it opened up nice bump to 4 items we still use today - probably get replaced this expac (maybe?).

    I believe the nuggets only open up if you beat Aayonar on this expac? That's pretty important to people, so that's locked behind a very hard raid for most people.
  5. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    In a vacuum, sure.

    In reality, you start threads about broken achievement a month ago (after someone posted in Veterans two months before that) and only get 5 likes and zero dev response:
    Zlandicar Reborn: Here be Dragons, Not! Broken | EverQuest Forums (

    If the developers aren't going to take the achievements seriously, then I'm not going to either nor do I want them to matter. Maybe if people are hired and more time is spent on new development then it can be reexamined. Until then, just make it ornaments.

    Has there been an expansion in recent memory where all the achievements have been in the game in a working manner on launch (or not autogranted regardless of what you do)?

    Finishing all the raid achievements is a Good Thing To Do (tm) but the only people who care about when you complete them are folks that probably have a gambling problem. It is even sillier than the normal race.

    P.S. Nuggets unlock after all raids done. No one had access until T3 down.
    Viper1 likes this.
  6. Viper1 Augur

    I like the OP's ideas, I also agree that the achievements need more TLC put into them so that they work as expected. I'd also change a bit what achievements are actually incorporated. I think there are too many "do this thing wrong so you take max punishment" achievements. Rather I'd prefer to see a "good, better, best" approach such that completing the event with the highest level of efficiency and following mechanics as designed results in full achievement progress. Example: ToV AoW, "Bend the Knee" is a good achievement, "click all the banners" is a good achievement, "click no banners" is a bad achievement, imo. I shouldn't have to do the mechanic wrong, on purpose, to complete an achievement.
    Barraind and Jumbur like this.
  7. Vumad Augur

    I don't like long lasting boosts because they impact raid tuning. Vanquisher is hard to get and very few guilds will finish them in era. Devs have a very big challenge trying to tune the events so they are not trivial for top guilds while not being impossible for more casual guilds.

    One of my solutions for this was to make vanquisher unlock a permanent expansion wide DPS/Healing boost of 3%. It would be permanent and lasting, but it wouldn't impact the new expansion. Characters would be more powerful in the expansion they mastered. This could be handled with a song window aura that works similar to your composite ability. Aura of the paragon, aura of the champion, aura of the vanquisher, aura of the master of ToV.

    It would create significant motivation to complete expansions while keeping most people on a level playing field for the next expansion. Gear, augs and spell ranks is sufficient to keep people apart.
    Viper1 and Qimble like this.
  8. Qimble Journeyman

    But that's kinda the point, no? The achieves are supposed to emulate a sort of hard mode, some of them are hard because having literally no one make an emote mistake over the course of a raid can be tough while others are hard because you're purposefully turning up the difficulty by failing the mechanics.
    Yinla, Riou and Szilent like this.
  9. Maedhros High King

    Hard pass.
    Could NOT pass harder.

    I agree that it is cool to be able to get a strong upgrade for raid achievements that say "hey guys, I am a member of one of the top guilds and my toon is stronger because of it".
    What is not cool is going back to do F-ing TBM raid cheeves for 4 years because the best in slot type 3 modifier aug was only available that way.
    I also have no interest in going back to do TBL cheeves for the tiny upgrade to the evolving gear, even though those are still best in slot items.

    I would guess that nearly every higher end guild is split, between the people that already got their cheeves and have no interest in going back to do that crap, and other people that could not care less, and then the handful of newer or returning people that missed the cheeves when they were current.

    I would also guess that most of the mid or lower tier guilds are not capable of doing the cheeves when they are current which only adds to the giant gulf in raiding guild strength.

    If there was a way to give a small bonus while the raids were current, that did not force a guild to go back again and again for years I could support it.
    For example a boon that increases dmg or healing while a player is playing in ONLY that particular expansion.

    If its a persistent thing like the Eyes of Life and Decay, then that is not at all a good thing for the health of the raid game.
    Barraind and adetia like this.
  10. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I disagree, no reward should be worthless once the expansion is over. There are people who still go as far back as RoF to get the twincast clicky from xorrb, for example. People are still going back to get their nathsar diamond. Why discourage people from going back and beat old content?
    This game needs more content that is worth doing out of era, otherwise the game will just get smaller instead of larger with each expansion.
  11. Vumad Augur

    I didn't say no reward should be carried over. I said vanquisher should not. The examples you gave are great, but they don't meaningfully affect tuning. Our guild has done the RoS raid for the ludicrous mount. The Serpent of Vindication and other clickies from PoP were powerful and meaningful for many years after and enchanters still go back to Ssra to the Memory.

    Heroic AAs are okay because they are group content and anyone doing the work can get them. Vanquisher ACH however are another animal. It's all or nothing content that makes a really big impact. One ACH in the entire expansion can change wether 54 people can evolve 4 items to the last rank is a very significant difference in powered lock behind an event that almost no on could beat.

    I am in agreement. Rewards that carry over are great, and they should exist. I would love to see another Serpent of Vindication. However, tying significant power boosts to vanquisher is a tuning mistake. Put the boosts that carry over in chests and an conquerer, and put expansion banes on vanquisher.
    Jumbur likes this.
  12. KrakenReality Augur

    Counter-point as someone that used to feel obligated to participate in those events, I hated it. It was an absolute waste of time, but those nights are usually low numbers because nobody wants to do them. From the other perspective as a returning player, I hated it still.

    Like Cragzop said, these people can't even fix things in a timely manner much less functioning properly on launch. Even group challenger achievements are terrible. TBL is so wonky and seemingly random with some events.
  13. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I also agree, that such vanquisher rewards should never be "must haves".
    However if they can tune the reward into something that is still worth going back for even when it is out of era, then they found the correct balance. Stuff like old well-balanced vanquisher rewards is a great motivator when gathering open raids. :)

    While I enjoyed our TBM vanquisher attempts, Im well aware that not everyone does. Moving that aug's different ranks to various group/raid-achievements with only the final rank being vanquisher like they did in ToV, was a better solution. Getting the final 1% is not a "must have". On the flip side, it will be worthless to strive for in an open raid 2 years down the the effect decays at higher levels...

    In that aspect I think the nathsar diamond was better tuned. Groupers already had a lesser version, and an additional 35 heroics is not a gamebreaker, especially when compared with augs like artisans prize. But it will still be worth striving for, for the next few expansions(I think).
    Tsavo likes this.
  14. Tappin Augur

    CoV seems rushed - I bet they just ran out time or decided it was not worth the time.
    Skuz likes this.
  15. Skuz Berserker Logic: Kill everything.

    Personally speaking I think raid achievements should flag the whole membership of the guild when the guild achieves them just the very first time - so long as they are within 5 levels of the expansion the achievement is from.

    If you gain members later on & want to run it back well then you have to go run it back for those new people and the second one would not flag the whole guild all over again just the raid members that don't already have it.

    Some decent thought was put into the original post, some of the counterpoints are also valid concerns, personally I enjoy hitting those achievements wherever my guild can but it gets tiresome to re-run them over & over when you have a raid force of players who just can't all be there for the exact same days all the time.
  16. Skuz Berserker Logic: Kill everything.

    I am going to strongly disagree with this point since I feel that variety is important & being able to survive a series of deliberate screw ups that make things more difficult is still a valid way to test the skills & resilience of a raid team. Certainly I prefer most of the achieves being for doing things well, but having some slightly mad stuff is also kinda fun.
  17. Lianeb Augur

    Vanquisher should award a guild trophy.
    I love doing the achievements.....Once, maybe a few times but some of them are plain hard and not fun to do over and over.
    If the reward is a boost to ANYTHING, guilds will feel the need to do them over and over for their members. They are not fun 2 years down the road when you are still doing them on a reoccurring basis.
    scaethach, Maedhros, adetia and 2 others like this.
  18. Act of Valor The Newest Member

    The only issue I have with raid achievements is anything that makes the event take significantly longer. I know this was eons ago, but the achievement for waiting 30 minutes for Prince Selrach to enrage back in EoK still makes me dry heave.
    Maedhros, Vumad and Fenthen like this.
  19. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    They need to put more thought into achievements if they are going to give them a better reward.

    Klandicar for an example, we didn't do any testing on this raid in beta, beat it 2nd or 3rd run and got all 3 achievments without trying. I still don't see how you can fail the giant and coldain one and complete the raid. While others like the Aarayonar orb one seems extrememly hard with the high damage of the dots.

    Doing the raid differently is fine, but as someone said it shouldn't take an age. The fail banner one in Kael was fine, if you had a decent raid force that could keep runes up it was quicker to do the fail one.

    I'd also like to see more personal achievments if they go this route, so 1 person doesn't screw it up for 53 other raiders.
  20. Laronk Augur

    What if the vanquisher achievement was a guild trophy?
    Duder and Fenthen like this.

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