No, the primary job of the tank is to not die while holding agro. In situations where survivability has to be compromised solely to stay ahead of other tanks, the raid is shooting itself in the foot. Tanks can see what their hate relative to the MT is, there is zero reason for them to go past that. Dps alone will not overcome hate generation abilities/buttons, and if a ST or TT is ganking agro, they are using their own buttons to overreach the MT, which is just plain stupid. Tanks fighting each other for hate is a sure fire way to get your MT killed, because it splits healing. IMO anyone who pulls agro off the MT (outside of accidents or event mechanics) is incompetent. When I tank I don't necessarily generate the most hate, but I always stay up much longer than most of the other tanks and am usually the first to be able to tank an entire event without dieing. I use my discretion to balance those things out. I generate a butt load of hate when survivability is more assured, and scale back when it is not. I don't use all my survival tools at once, rather I space them out to ensure that survivability remains as even as possible of the course of the even. My dps parse usually tops out among the other tanks as well. When I am not MT I generate enough hate to be ahead of the dps but comfortably behind the MT.
Raid guilds get to check parses and check out talent they may want to ask to app. I think its a win/win for everyone.
Staying alive is not the MTs job, that falls on the healers. The MTs job is to utilize your tool set to smooth out incoming damage, and be less spiky for the healers to gauge a healing rhythm. And hold agro, and maintain mob position.
The server I play on has active pickup (open/casual/take your pick on terms) activity. We do ok. Tanks look at another tank who needs help and give them a few pointers. Same with healers. (after that it becomes beyond my knowledge)
Mid tier guilds have to struggle to keep raids even filled, much less being able to be picky about things on that level. That's why design like TBL is a death sentence to both low and mid tier guilds. I can tell from the chatter here a lot of people have no conception of how harsh the snails are on General Reparm, for example. With a well-geared stable force, it's an understandable mistake to be unaware of things like that. Here's a really good example of the disconnect that's possible due to different experiences: The easiest event in T1 RoS is by far Gorowyn, in my opinion. Cactiikii has a range in raid DPS output where if a couple people die, the event then becomes a slog with a struggle to beat the enrage timer and finish off timed waves before the next arrives. Gorowyn is actually an example of tuning done right, in my opinion, where with the increasing complexity the individual components aren't as harsh. The thing is, where Cactiikii becomes a greater challenge but has a wide range of DPS in which it's still possible, events like the second and third in Sathir's Tomb become brick walls without "proper" raid composition. Not enough cold damage? You're done. Your force is support heavy and lighter on DPS? You're done, period. That's terrible, and what's worse that kind of design means even a higher end guild is more vulnerable to total collapse with the loss of a few people if the events become literally impossible due to ridiculous timers. To be able to immediately fill raids and pick virtually whatever target we want is a huge blessing, and perhaps I thank our raiders too much for it. It is not empty thanks though. Those that are used to full raids, or being able to optimize raid composition for a certain event, may have absolutely no clue about how amazing that luxury is. The experience is night and day. That's not even getting into the complexities of having a strong leadership team to spread out various duties.
I don't think mid tier raiding guilds are struggling. They are farming all or nearly all of TBL raids bar Mearatas raid.
It's more complicated than this but: http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/index.php?expansion=EOK1 37 http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/index.php?expansion=TBL2 22 That's only going by the charts too. A far stronger relative raid force is required to function in current raids than a few expansions ago. Are high end guilds that are left after many of the mid tier guilds die off suddenly then mid tier guilds? I think that scews the perception, when the content itself simply isn't possible with forces akin to the low/mid tier guilds of the past. This many months into the expansion with only 20 on the progression list into Empyr is catastrophically worrying, even if nothing else I said is right. Edit: Anyway, the topic itself is of significance as per the first post in the thread, about brick wall timers etc. I don't want to derail this into an argument of semantics about what a mid tier guild is, when the topic itself was actually about the players themselves.
Maybe slightly more complicated? But not much. The definition of mid-tier has definitely changed. But wouldn't it be relatively safe to call a guild mid-tier if they are raiding current content? It seems, broadly speaking, that we should be able to agree on: High-end--end-game farming Mid-tier--raiding at least T1 of current expansion Low-tier--raiding anything older than current expansion So by those generous definitions, your assertion holds true. These numbers ARE scary.
The gap between the 20th guild and the 21st etc is hugue. Cannot put them on equal tier imo. Been 3 + months and counting still on the latest Ralafin raid win by the 20th guild For me on this expansion, mid tier ends at the 20th guild. 21st + is low tier.
It happens. The devs did give us clicky's to help (or cold). But you can't really expect the devs to dumb it down to the point we're using a complete heal chain.
Bigstomp, it's not at all the same as in the past. While the topic creator exaggerates with comments such as the one about six second emotes, the general tone I agree with. This is more akin to regression to Underfoot/Gates of Discord tuning than event complexity. One of the easiest events in RoS, Gorowyn, is actually one where more complicated things are happening. The simplicity of a CH chain and tuning of mechanics aren't the same subject, in my opinion. One of the best-tuned events with complicated mechanics, in my opinion, is the Journey Home raid in CotF. It has a lot going on. You can't argue it's returning to a single boss with a CH chain. In the end, however, the individual mechanics were not overwhelming to most raid forces. There was no hard-coded timer. There are multiple islands at the start, but not all have to be engaged at the same time if the raid force can't handle that. Going back further to Zalikor in Rain of Fear, there are some harsh mechanics. The raid must flee to high ground and not fall in lava, people are pulled to the middle and have to get out, etc. With that raid however, whoever designed it had to have had mid tier guilds in mind. You see, the NE (?) platform has far weaker mobs that spawn from the eggs when Zalikor takes flight. It still has to be dealt with, but the players more prone to falling off the edge or being weaker in general were perfect to put in that team. Their job is still important, but more forgiving than the teams at the other two egg spots. That kind of design addresses what the topic creator's concern is, and no one is asking for a return to CH chains. I predict if the horrific trend in tuning the last couple expansions continues, what will happen is only what would have been called high end raid forces will remain. This has already happened on some servers due to TBL. Then, those forces that do remain will lose viability very easily due to that tuning, meaning the people more prone to jumping ship or stirring drama will be the first to jump ship to the raid forces that still have strength. Then, when those raid forces run into trouble, those types of players will jump ship yet again. I don't think the raid game disintegrating from the bottom up is a good thing. Maybe to people who don't really care about teamwork and companionship that spans years and have no scruples about jumping ship when things get tough such a situation would be fine and dandy, but it's not good for the game. What's worse, if the developers double down on this mistake it's not just guilds/raid forces that will collapse; it's entire server communities. Again from the sounds of it, that's already happening too. At the very least, this "one size fits all" timed mechanics nonsense has to stop. Most events in the history of this game didn't have that. They don't need it now and serve only to more easily destabilize what may have been viable raid forces. The most dangerous thing here is if the developers are blind to what is happening. I've had people tell me the developers just don't care. I find that very hard to believe, especially since some of them have worked on this game for well more than a decade. They have to be aware of how close the line is between viability and oblivion to weaker forces though. Situations like the massive nerfs to mana abilities and AE damage mid EoK, while then shortly after making the EoK raids harder as well, serve as minor annoyances to stronger forces. To low or mid tier guilds, things like that can be game over. I intended this to be a very short reply. I regret I instead made a wall of text. I think events like Journey Home and Zalikor are perfect examples of design that takes this topic into account, though.
Sorry for the double post, but I just want to give thanks to all the earlier discussion in the topic. I wanted to put in my two cents when I chimed in before I read all those pages, but there is a wealth of actual data in the many pages of this topic giving very good specific feedback on the topic, especially about linearity of progression but non-linearity in tuning and the discussion vs. individual emote failures vs. raid-punishing emote failures.
Or.. Perhaps just may be the problem with raiding for the none elite is lack of skill in class. At what point does it stop being a "Game design" flaw and actually become hey you know what may be just may be we are not as good as we think we are ?
Its not "game design an poor mechanics" if some one does not understand the mechanic of the raid requires you to MOVE OUT OF AN AURA or take damage. Thats flat out and out lack of player skill / knowledge / observation hey there is a big ol ball on top of me but I am mid cast . Meh I'm gonna stay an see what happens (this times how ever many times it takes before they realize they can not live threw that effect.)
I had a giant reply to this and my tab refreshed and cleared it. In any case, I doubt he meant all mechanics. Dance Dance Retribution being shared for all raid members is the silly part. That fight itself I actually like because it follows my personal belief that with increasing complexity the individual components should be more lenient. Meeting the DPS to hit 70 is the hardest part of that fight, in my opinion, and when it was current that wasn't trivial for many raid forces. She has fairly high regen even if you don't screw up her "heal DS" mechanic and her crystals heal a ton of HP even if you don't let them explode. The thing is, her "run to the aura" phase is individually punishing if you fail but there aren't more adds and she isn't that hard to deal with, and she isn't spamming other deadly AEs at the same time. Likewise, the miniboss phase with the three different auras is pretty forgiving too. You can splash the AE disease. She remains rooted. The adds combining punishment is very forgiving (perhaps too forgiving). They don't have to be balanced or anything, or have high regen, or spawn other adds. It's more complex, but not punishingly so. Even though it's very easy to fail the DDR part of the fight, the rest of the fight is lenient enough the survivors can help the raid get back up on its feet if people screw it up. Likewise, the final part of the fight isn't bad unless two people fail their run away emote at once. The subject requires context. In that case, the achievement is stupid but the event is fine, in my opinion.
My raids found it way easier to combine the three minis instead of managing them separately. When separated gotta talk three tanks into positioning them right, and heal reqs can vary based on who's faffing about, cures gotta be here & there -- just so much nicer to pile everyone up & fire whatever burns are left over. Becomes a time to flex after getting past the runaround bit with auras
The silly part is anyone who does not have the skill required to be in a top ten raid guild. Who claims its the mechanic's of a raid's design that is holding them back . Not the skill level of each an every raid member of that raid force they are apart of. AGAIN I have to ask YOU this time instead of them. At what point is it no longer a "Game design" flaw, that you now see your raid guild just sucks because of lack of skill in class across the board (with yes some average to outstanding players in raid force, they can not carry EVERYONE) What say you?
I say the game is for people who have been playing for many, many years and not all of them are perfect. What makes you think their existence should be incidental? Neither of the two of us you are replying to are referring to ourselves regarding current content, so trying to move this into some weird personal attack isn't going to work. The beauty of teams is that even if all members are not equal, the stronger members can't necessarily do things on their own either. In a way, that further solidifies my praise of the event. It's great when there are multiple ways to approach an event, rather than the hard-coded timers of Sathir's 2 or "one size fits all" ludicrous 20 minute timers. Another event I liked was that even though it had an enrage timer, it was still possible: Mindshear. People call me absolutely nuts for liking that event, but I deeply respected that its timer mechanic just made the end get tougher rather than being an instant game over.
