Raid content for the non 1%

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Windance, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Zunnoab Augur

    5. needs to be balanced with remembering this is a game. Sometimes the hard choice has to happen: lose a long term contributing player that is burned out on their main class, or keep a long term contributing player and take a hit to their old class but retain them for possibly years to come. Guild leadership essentially has to treat this like another job. Expecting that of everyone else can make the game not fun anymore for some.

    The "just show up" criticism is one I see sometimes. If you have a player that "just shows up" 9+ hours a week for years in a twenty year old game that is a huge opportunity to improve a valuable asset to a guild/raid force. Those are the people that help keep forces operational through slower periods too. When people outright dismiss the contribution of weaker or moderate players with that kind of high attendance, it shows they have begun to forget it's a video game, and that kind of time commitment isn't a trivial asset. Obviously, weaker players must sit over stronger ones, but that is a luxury not everyone has, and leads around to part of what the topic creator was saying. I don't agree with everything they said, but I think they were on the nose on that front.

    That comes back with having more leadership, as far as potential to nurture those committed players to improve. Sometimes with patience their contributions go up several times. I know a couple people in the game that have worked miracles on helping such players (at least one of them is in this topic but I won't call them out, but don't underestimate my respect for you, I'm sure you know who you are). When I first started raiding I questioned how leadership could have a direct role on the success of dozens of others when they are only a couple people. Boy was I wrong there. It takes the effort of the individuals, but effectively leading them and having a leadership team to do so is an enormous factor.
  2. Lianeb Augur

    Of all the decals and visualizations in EQ, I can only think of like 2 or 3 in ALL of EQ that were good and you should be in it. Why do you think so many people had trouble with the shield click auras in the SF raid? It was outside the normal for EQ is probably why.

    People that stand in bad things are just that bad.
    Whulfgar likes this.
  3. Whulfgar Augur

    This is what I was talking about. Desire to want to play an learn to be better in class.

    Desire to learn from better players an implement what you learn .. That is key..

    Far to often when I was in lower tier'ed guilds I ran up to the .. buzz off whulf I know what I am doing you suck you cant teach me anything.. attitude ..

    And that was just 1 type of mentality out there, another is they simply dont listen .. 100% completely ignore you .. another is they ask an beg you for info .. an NEVER put it to use..

    if you have a player who shows up 9+ hrs a week in a 4 day a week raid guild thats nothing.. How can they improve they game play / skill wise if they only ever login to raid an thats it ?

    Cause THATS .. what the majority of casuals do from what I've personally seen . They login their mains only to raid playing their alts 95% of the time they are online.. So what then?
  4. Zunnoab Augur

    Well, you just acknowledged they exist. Some of that is exaggerating, though it may feel like that sometimes. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can read minds though. Very seldom is it as simple as people "not wanting" to play well.

    One of the people I praised, as far as having the patience to deal with helping people improve, said something along the lines of jumping ship to greener pastures being easy mode, while sticking through it with a more realistic imperfect team is the most challenging.

    If everyone played that well, leadership wouldn't even be necessary.
    Also, no one raiding hours a week for years is "casual."

    The exact hours wasn't my point. We took out seven current events Sunday in four hours. Some do eleven. I suspect most do less. That is all relative. At one point I raided six nights a week. We got less done than our roster now does in three.
  5. Tanols Augur

    Some people find that challenge takes all the fun out of the game for them. Others get sick and tired of the struggle.
    I have always said that for all the crap you have put up with over the years you deserve EQ sainthood Zunn lol

    As far as the OP goes I hope their has been enough constructive feedback in this thread to guide developers on future game design.
    Zunnoab likes this.
  6. Zunnoab Augur

    I'm not sure if the developers have the time, but it would be neat if some did. There is a lot of constructive feedback here from multiple perspectives, but of course no easy answer.

    I'm glad to run into you again. I always felt I was a tad harsh the last time we spoke, but then again I'm always told my harsh usually isn't bad.
  7. Bamboompow Augur

    Looks like this has devolved into the usual horse crap.

    Lianeb and Whulfgar, Everyone gets your position at this point. It will still be nice to see this category of raids developed, but from your position and probably the devs, its so much easier to just bully people about how they need to improve so there isn't a need to waste dev time on "special" raids. Even if they would be enjoyable. Given the track record, ultimately they would just become the latest in the nerf bullseye at some point (after an adequate exploitation period of course).

    So much frustration lately and so little fun. Nuff said.
    Vumad and Anastasis like this.
  8. kookoo Augur

    we did empyr raid yesterday , from 8h30 to 11 ( pm ), .

    1st go, we were clearing trash , on the last or 2 last mobs to kill someone agroed the boss about 300 feet away , ~ he killed several and we had to gate / evac .

    second try , we got 1st boss to 35 % and went to the other one, but someone agroed another boss on the way, and he killed many again and we had to gate / evac again .

    3rd try , we were at the final boss to kill, someone didn't run on the emote , got most of us mana drained, and we wiped,

    4th try same as the 3rd , that was all for us , rez , rebuff and we were done.

    it is frustrating , having to deal with inconpetant , who don't want to put the effort to improve their play,

    that is mainly the diff, between the top guilds and others, who struggle.
  9. Lianeb Augur

    You mistake my position on things greatly!!
    I know what the game is like at all tiers of game play. Pssst I have been there
    I don’t come to the board and scram about needing things unless I feel they are an unfair or game breaking thing. I like this game balanced and enjoyable. Hell I don’t like most of the raids in this expansion, and believe or not my favorite raid IN this expansion is Mearatas, but you don’t see me asking to have all raids the way that one is. I appreciate the work the devs put into this game and try to get my guild to work within those boundaries.

    I also currently raid with a mid to low tier guild, I also attend open raids on my server, I am probably one of the few end raiders that enjoys pick up groups, let me tell you I have seen the gambit of bad play. But I also don’t criticize the way people want to play, as long as they are within the bounds of what “I” view as designers intent.

    What I don’t like to see is (for lack of better terms) dumbing down content to reward crappy game play. I feel things should be a challenge for lower skill playstyles (note I didn’t use casual verse raid here). I also feel that some folks could do more for themselves than currently they do, and ask the developers to fix it for them.

    I am no stranger to logging in on raid nights and being frustrated with the turnout and trying to make something of it, I am no stranger to stronger players carrying others victory, I did it for 13 years. I know how the other half is, and if you think my point of view is to kick or drive those people out of game you are dead wrong.

    Typed on phone so probably misspellings galore
    Whulfgar likes this.
  10. Lianeb Augur

    Not to sound crass but this is what tier 0 raids would bring to many guilds.
    You ARE in tier 2 and that commendable. But what happens when we get tier 0 or more linear difficulty as has been suggested. Then you will get the very same people back on these boards complaining that the jump from one tier to the next is to hard.

    Dumbing down content over time. The developers make make some really tough decisions and I don’t envy them
  11. Zunnoab Augur

    The fact the four bosses on Prince Ralaifin sit there and stop moving to spam their punishment mechanic is a major flaw with the event. The run away emotes are too severe as well, but there is too much randomness introduced to some of these raids.

    I'd imagine for a weaker force, getting the Obiliate DPS emote early on is pretty much game over guaranteed due to the severity of its AE. It also makes it getting out of bounds disproportionately harsh.

    The problem with such harsh mechanics is it turns 98% success into abysmal success rate for things. People like to pull out the violin and moan about how "the raid" is doing bad, but just one person making a mistake or the wrong person dying at the wrong time is game over and doesn't necessarily mean the raid performed poorly. Now, having the tanking go absolutely haywire and having the raid recovered, while embarrassing, does show good raid performance due to being able to pick up the pieces from an event that is almost a given failure if anything goes wrong, unless your force is very strong.

    Naturally, when it's the most strong players that make the mistake, people are forgiving and wave it off. Actually, I've found leading raids that often people have knee-jerk emotional reactions rather than analyzing the true reasons things go wrong. There usually is a reason. That doesn't mean excuse mind you, of course, but finding the reason helps fix it in the future.

    I don't despise the event as much as some others do, but I only ever saw it when it was already on farm. From what I understand it was more enjoyable in beta too, then irritating mechanics were added or tuned up as well.

    This is why more than anything else, other than events that are just bonkers in tuning/roster demands, repetition usually results in eventual smooth farming. Some people get used to mechanics immediately. Others take time. I've found it's very seldom that one person "always" fails, etc.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  12. kookoo Augur

    yes this is a tier 2 raid ( the only one we have beat ) took us 40 tries + to beat it, we did lately , from most of them , we had peoples agroing other boss while moving around or mana drain , the one we beat we didn't had any to miss the run away emote , or agroing other boss..

    btw ,i am ok to have tier 2 raids to be harder than tier one, DB could make tier one raids aimed for the *weaker guilds * though.

    * all these were with 54 players in raid * and about 20 on list.
  13. Yinla Augur

    I dislike raids that have an element of luck to them.

    You need to be lucky on this one and not get the light emote on Oblate until you are ready for it. We have had good runs and bad ones and it always comes down to light emotes.
  14. Scornfire Augur

    FWIW, I've noticed (but haven't really gone to any lengths to confirm) that if you have an active Prince over 28% HP (IE, you don't take them all the way to 20 before unlocking) the emote will defer to the active prince(s). I'll try to remember to strip DoTs around 35% on raids the next few weeks and see if the trend continues
  15. Lianeb Augur

    I always find it interesting how others do events and I am sure it has to with raid make up and how you learned the event.

    My question to you is how is oblates emote more dangerous than the others?
    We rarely if ever get oblates emote because we dps him down first and don’t generally get the emote until there are only 2 mobs it could be. For us it’s either Theo or Ecclesiastic.

    Are you trying to ignore the emote and hope it’s one you can power through?
    It only takes 4% to make the emote and consequences null.
  16. Yinla Augur

    The emote isn't an issue in itself it is Oblates AEs going off while he is awake. We always leave him till last (well try) so we don't have to deal with them any longer than we have to. We don't have your guilds DPS so things take us a bit longer.
  17. Lianeb Augur

    The timer on the emote definitely changes with regards to their HP, I am not sure the exact nature of it but it is def longer when all priest are above 25% but below 29%. I feel this was done to still allow for the achievement of taking them down 1 at a time while the rest are above 25%
  18. Lianeb Augur

    I can under stand that. We always worked with Theologist as the most dangerous emote, in fact it’s the only one from any of them we run from.

    Edit to clarify:
    We only run from the wrath emote on Theo
    Yinla likes this.
  19. Scornfire Augur

    To be clearer, I'm intimating that if there is an active boss with enough health to fulfill the "Damage ___ 4%ish" requirement for the emote that the event will choose said active boss for the emote instead of one that hasn't been engaged yet
  20. Yinla Augur

    We have had both Eccles and Theo with enough HP for emotes and still got Oblate.

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