Raid boss strikethrough, or not?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Yahsha, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. josh Augur

    Ok, i get it. so my riposte chance is nearly 100% is the reason for the low parry rate. It would probably be beneficial to go all HDex, but you would also never be able to avoid more than 25% of the time, or whatever the exact value of strikethrough is.
  2. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    Because riposte is checked before parry. Some of those ripostes, would have been parries, but because they were a riposte, parry checks were skipped.

    Because they are independent of each other and it depends entirely on the specific NPC you are fighting. Some NPCs might have wildly different strikethrough values. If there is a ToL npc that only has 50% strikethrough, then you should be able to defend up to 50% of the time. If the npc has 100% strikethrough (aka like all raid bosses from like EoK? - CoV) then your ability to defend will be 0%. If there was an actual cap on the defensive percentage itself, then the amount of strikethrough on NPCs wouldn't matter.

    This is likely correct, but not for the reason you are saying. You've gotten the right answer, but went about it the wrong way.

    There is a point at which stacking a single heroic doesn't increase your ability to defend. This happens once you reach 100% chance to defend as a combination of all of your defensive skills: E.g. if you have (in absolute terms) 50% chance to riposte, and 25% chance to parry and 25% chance to dodge, you've reached 100%. No amount of increase to riposte or parry will help you defend more, and if you stack more Hdex it will skew that percentage more towards Riposte and less towards Parry and Dodge because riposte is checked first.

    The question of whether you should continue to stack HDex comes down to the other benefits it gives, that is melee critical chance and additional damage from riposting / procs.

    Note that both of those also have upper limits of what is possible:
    • Berserkers can already hit 100% crit chance iirc, so it won't help them with that.
    • If you have enough Hdex that you are only seeing Ripostes and never get Parry/Dodge (which is about what you seem to be reaching), then that benefit isn't helping you anymore.
    Simply put, there isn't a generic hard line for everyone because it depends on other factors that are unique to different classes.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  3. josh Augur

    yeah i understand now, you are right as usual. and yeah, as ive said before, im hdex either way because the dps benefits are significant, and easily parse-able.
  4. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    What really needs to be tested in depth is the difference between going full HDex, full HAgi, full HSta and using the balanced augments.

    Most of the original data that was gathered years ago was either wrong then, (GamParse had some inaccuracies and EQ's logging has been greatly improved the last few years) or has been outdated due to changes like the hit/miss calculation being checked prior to riposte.

    I'm not aware of anyone who has actually done new comparison parses with modern data. I have suspicions that things will come out differently than people expect.
  5. Qimble Augur

    While we aren't 100% identical (he's finished all the heroic AAs and has 2 more trophies than I do) one of the other pallies in my guild stacks dex while I go stam. Typically I wind up having lower average hit received by a decent (10-15% is the typical numbers, I've seen as high as 20%) amount. Obviously this isn't a controlled experiment set up vs raid trash this was live events but that has been the trend I notice.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    But DHex is giving equal boosts to riposte and parry chances right? So those two chance rates should be the same (Yes I see your absolute qualifier). Right, so riposte gets priority on checks, so it sees more swings. But the rate of success should be equal vs the swings they each check against. Parses aren't showing that (I think). For example:

    100 NPC swings
    X% are riposted
    Y% of remaining swings are parried
    X% should equal Y%

    Priority order should give something like this:

    100 NPC swings
    20 / 100 swings miss
    40 / 80 swings are riposted (50% because of HDex)
    20 / 40 swings are parried (50% because of HDex, why not?)
    05 / 20 swings are dodged (25% because of HAgi)
    00 / 15 swings are shield blocked
    15 / 15 swings do damage

    If we are seeing roughly this in parses, then okay great :)

    ps: I guess in absolute terms, for a character with both HDex and HAgi at 2500, I would expect ratios to breakdown like: 50%, 25%, 12%, 6%, with the remaining 7% split between shield block and damage. This assumes an equal weight to misses as for dodges, which is probably not true, but that's just a bias to the right. Then adjust for strike throughs.
  7. josh Augur

    Yeah, so if i had 90% riposte rate and 90% parry rate and was attacked 1000 times with no misses this would be the math

    For this example, i have a 25% chance to NOT have my attack struckthrough. which means i will riposte 90 * .25 = 22.5% of the time. so, of those 1000 attacks, 225 were riposted. i would subtract 225 from the total attacks for 775.

    Now, that 775 is not actually what's making it to parry, its the 100 that weren't riposted. So, the actual number of parries i get will be 100 * .9 = 90, which gives me a parry rate of 90/775 = 11.6% but then that goes to strikethrough 11.6 * .25 = 2.9%

    I know I just barely had all this made clear to me, but I figured I'd type it just to make sure i understand it.
    Beimeith likes this.
  8. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    Sokath, His Eyes Uncovered!
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  9. FranktheBank Augur

  10. Wulfhere Augur

    Let me see if I can make your example a bit more clear.

    1000 swings reach riposte check
    - 900 swings pass riposte check (90%)
    -- 675 NPC strike through
    -- 225 PC riposte swings (absolute 22.5%)
    == 0 remainder for riposte (intermediate 22.5%)

    = 100 swings reach parry check
    - 90 swings pass parry check (90%)
    -- 67 NPC strike through
    -- 23 PC parry swings (absolute 2.3%)
    == 0 remainder for parry (intermediate 2.9%)

    = 10 swings reach dodge check
    - 9 swings pass dodge check (90%)
    -- 6 NPC strike through
    -- 3 PC dodges (absolute 0.3%)
    == 0 remainder for parry (intermediate 0.3%)

    1 swing left for shield block or damage.

    I think it's simpler to consider the absolute percentages vs 1000 swings. Absolute defenses sum to 25.1% and intermediate percentages seem to be just noise and stat padding.

    edit: absolute vs intermediate
  11. Qimble Augur

    So at the end of all the theorycrafting, the general logic of:

    Hdex is best if you want to maximize damage dealt and procs
    Hstam is best if you want to minimize damage taken
    Hagi is best for neither

    Still holds true for tanks in raids, right? Since even with full stam augs you'll probably be at 1800ish heroic agi and dex which I would think would be enough to put you at the cap on evasion. (And I haven't crunched the numbers but I don't think it'll be possible to go above the shielding cap this xpac... but I know we're getting close)
  12. josh Augur

    Using the formulas on a certain project, the only difference i saw between the riposte/parry/dodge formulas were the bonuses, dodge having the most bonuses and riposte having few. and the other difference being that riposte chance is divided by 50 instead of 45. Feel free to correct me if that's wrong.

    I plugged that stuff into excel to see if i could get a handle on general numbers for things. I don't think 1800 is enough. if you add 300 from tribute that gets you closer with 2100, but even at 2100 hdex/hagi i think you can still benefit from a bit more HDex. depends on what heroic strikethrough actually is though of course. 60 fits my parses best. but that is only one mob and the parses were not that long. If it is 60 in general, i think you could see good benefits all the way up to 2500 HDex, assuming 2100 HAgi also.

    You would see benefits all the way up to about 3500, but the diminishing returns gets pretty harsh. Basically you can never hit maximum defense until one of your skills hits 100%. And obviously this is more complicated by throwing in abilities like blade guardian that I haven't really accounted for but I don't think mods to the skills actually change things THAT much. most of the chance to defend comes from heroics.

    If you don't have your artisan prize maxed out and you don't have every trophy, you have full HSta augs and your HAgi/Hdex are around like 1600, you would benefit quite a bit by increasing your HDex to at least 2100

    If your at 2100 with tribute, maybe throw in the best HDex aug or two and make sure you are at a shielding breakpoint and call it good.

    That's where I'm at after all this.
  13. Warpeace Augur

    This is sounding like the Balanced type 5's are a better choice when weighing diminishing returns? Is there a solid reason as a Knight to pass 2500 HDex and ignore HStam/HAgi. Other than a lot of raid mobs just ignore many of our checks and loosing some dps?

    What I noticed by going balanced type 5's was a loss of 26 accuracy and 4 combat effects while either no change or gains in the other categories.
  14. Riou EQResource

    Don't forget mobs have heroic strikethrough, it's a direct reduction of your Heroic based avoidance boosts, mob with 2000 heroic strikethrough means your 2500 hdex is actually only 500 avoidance wise
    Beimeith likes this.
  15. josh Augur

    I've been thinking about it, and i think the answer to what will provide the most tanking ability is actually HAgi. Dodge is the easiest skill to hit 100% with and you only need to hit 100% with one skill in order to max out your defense. so it doesn't really matter that HDex increases two skills. You could hit 100% dodge chance as a warrior around 3300 if the mob had 60 heroic strikethrough. given max dodge skill and 114% dodge SPA. And looking at miss rates, ToL raid boss accuracy does not seem that high, so you get all the defense it's possible to get, plus you are adding more misses.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  16. Qimble Augur

    My general phillosphy for the last couple xpacs has been "hit highest shielding possible then start dropping h-stam for h-dex" so I'm thinking that's probably the best way to go purely from a standpoint of wanting to be the tank who takes the least damage per hit/second while tanking in raids.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Yah if the miss percentage is raised on par with dodge. It really should be possible for misses to dominate the defensives (because it's now checked first) with enough HAgi. Is that parsing true?

    Let's preface the previous example:

    1250 swings reach hit/miss check
    - 250 swings pass miss check (absolute 20%)
    == 1000 remainder to defend (intermediate 20%)

    1000 swings reach riposte check
    - 900 swings pass riposte check (90%)
    -- 675 NPC strike through
    -- 225 PC riposte swings (absolute 18%)
    == 0 remainder for riposte (intermediate 22.5%)

    = 100 swings reach parry check
    - 90 swings pass parry check (90%)
    -- 67 NPC strike through
    -- 23 PC parry swings (absolute 1.8%)
    == 0 remainder for parry (intermediate 2.9%)

    = 10 swings reach dodge check
    - 9 swings pass dodge check (90%)
    -- 6 NPC strike through
    -- 3 PC dodges (absolute 0.2%)
    == 0 remainder for parry (intermediate 0.3%)

    1 swing left for shield block or damage.
  18. FranktheBank Augur

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  19. Qimble Augur

  20. FranktheBank Augur

    Yah. The flowchart is simple. Do you melee? Then you stack hdex? Are you a caster or a priest? Stack whatever you want.