Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Yahsha, Feb 7, 2022.
From the parse, my guess is HSta
It's the same 1% to riposte and parry (block if beast/monk), I think those numbers sub 1% were from parsing against mobs with strikethrough
It began in RoS era for Monks iirc, you just needed to get any of your avoidances to ~120% iirc, to get the 100% avoidance (had to get enough above 100% to counter the heroic and/or base strikethroughs), Monks just got theirs fastest because Block has a like / 25 divisor to % where Parry/Riposte has like / 45, but any melee class could hit the %'s needed in TBL (how everyone was soloing those Evolvers fast and easy)
While 45 seems right for Parry, Beimeith (and Shiftie) are quoting 25 for riposte as well? That's a big difference. Parses seem to indicate a different ratio for riposte and parry because otherwise HDex of 2500 would make them both 100%. Which is correct?
That's something else.
All the heroics are in increments of 25 points = 1% dodge/block/parry/riposte.
When calculating Skill-based block chance for monks there is a /25 at the end, but for other skills like riposte/parry/dodge there is a /45 at the end.
For example, here is how dodge chance is calculated:
Heroic agility is divided by 25, but it also uses integer math so it rounds down, so if you have 24 HAgi that is divided by 25 = .96, which rounds down to 0%. It is shorthand to say 25 points per 1%.
The bonus from HAgi is then compared to HStrikethrough on the NPC and it takes whichever value is lower and subtracts it from your HAgi bonus.
So, if you have 1000 HAgi / 25 = 40 and the NPC has 10 HStrikethrough, it subtracts 10 from 40 = 30% Hagi bonus. If the NPC has 50 HStrikethrough, then it subtracts 40 from 40 = 0% Hagi bonus. (This prevents HStrikethrough from affecting normal dodge skill chance).
Then it calculates normal skill chance and adds the heroic chance to that.
The only thing this formula is missing is lucky chance. I think it's added in step 4 or 5 but the bonus luck adds to defensive chance is so low you can ignore it. From what I remember, it's basically impossible for it to ever reach more than 1% or something.
Then, if you successfully dodge, normal strikethrough is rolled to see if it strikesthrough your dodge.
Anyway, what Riou was referring to is that Block is /25 for skill chance vs /45 for the others. That has nothing to do with Heroic bonuses.
So an example: I have 489 Dodge skill, 114% dodge bonus (70 worn, 24 AA, 20 spell) and 2502 Hagi.
Step 1 = unknown, but let's assume 50.
Step 2 = 2502 Hagi / 25 = 100
Step 3 Min(100, 50) = 50.
Step 4 = 489 + 100 = 589
Step 5 = 589 + (489 * 114) /100= 563
Step 6 = 563 / 45 = 12
Step 7 = 12 + (100 - 50) = 62 (Chance to Dodge).
Step 8 = Rnd(1,100) if (roll <=62) then dodge.
Step 9 = If Step 8 is dodge, roll strikethrough. Assume strikethrough is something like 75%.
If I have a 62% chance to dodge, and a 75% chance of a strikethrough that means there is 46% chance to strikethrough out of 100%.
So: (100-62) = 38% chance NOT to dodge, + 46% chance to strikethough = 84% chance I will be hit, 16% chance I will successfully dodge and not take damage.
Note: This makes assumptions on the values of Hstrikethrough and Strikethrough which are both unknown. It also doesn't include Luck because that is also an unknown.
Fun fact: since shield/staff blocks are both fixed percentages (there is no crazy math like the above), and now that they have unique messages in chat instead of the generic block message, it should be possible to calculate the actual strikethrough rate of NPCs based on that.
And if the normal strikethrough rate can be found, it should also be possible to calculate the Heroic strikethrough rate.
Someone just needs to set up a very, very long test parse.
I went into the shei raid and ran some parses against him.
These results are very confusing. 3060 and 3380 are my hdex values for that parse. you see that increasing my riposte chance seems to decreases my parry/dodge chance. and when i have no type 5's, my dodge and parry chance are as high as when i am full hagi.
These parses weren't long, and they were inconsistent. but my dodge chance should not have gone up with 0 type 5 augs in. My hdex and hagi were around 1700 for that parse.
I'm curious to see if i can get my parry chance to 0 with enough hdex
I made a mistake, these are the numbers, i'd pay someone for a working parser at this point.
It seems to me that the cap is a cumulative 25% on riposte/parry/dodge/block. based on parses against group mobs you can get your riposte above 25% but increasing it up to that point doesn't benefit you as you will just lower your other evasion skills. to get above 25% riposte in ToL would require something like 3600 HDex.
Basically, it seems to me that people who were going HSta before have no real reason to change. HAgi is still roughly the same because miss chance doesn't seem to count towards the 25% cap.
Josh, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but everything you just said is wrong, and I want that to be clear for anyone else who reads this thread.
1) Your parses weren't long enough to show accurate results. This is clear from the fact your miss rate went down with dex type 5 augs which is impossible.
2) It seems you are trying to calculate absolute defensive percentages based on raw numbers instead of adjusting them. This is why it looks like your parry rate goes up when your riposte rate goes down.
Defensive skills are checked in order. If you successfully riposte, it will NOT check parry. Thus, to accurately calculate your chance to parry, you have to subtract the number of successful ripostes from the total number of attempts, then calculate your parry rate.
In an absolute sense, yes, your parry rate will go down the more you riposte, because if you riposte 100% of the time, it would be impossible to ever parry because every hit is a riposte.
3) There is absolutely no such thing as a 25% cap. This is easily testable by going into older content that has less strikethrough / Hstrikethrough.
I posted the formula for Dodge, with an example, and outside of Luck (which is never more than 1% from what I've seen), and the unknown values for strikethrough and Hstrikethrough (which are guesses, but likely pretty close to accurate) the results match the formula. Riposte, Parry, and Block (with /25 vs /45) work the same way.
No, you are wrong. To be clear I'm sure I'm not 100% correct, but you are definitely wrong. I did exactly as you described. and frankly I don't understand how you think I don't know that considering i told you that the currently working version of gamparse does this incorrectly. To clear, I know you already knew that, but I'm saying I clearly also know it. Riposte/parry/dodge/block are capped.
Here are the full numbers for each parse. and yes, it is easily testable that there is a cap. it doesn't work exactly as i described but it's there. pay special attention to the near zero parry and dodge chances despite the 1500 attempts that make it that far on the CC spider
Another thing, if i get my heroics low enough i actually start to block
Oh, also i realise those tables might be a bit confusing, and my original mistake was caused by my weird table design, misses are calculated against the number under actual attempts, and then every percentage is calculated based on the attempts of the previous column, sorry i made the mistake last night and just adjusted the formulas without correcting the appearance.
if you get your heroics low enough you turn into a monk? what??
lol shield block
There is no cap. What you are seeing is the result of strikethrough.
When strikethrough is ~70-75% (what it is estimated to be in modern content), you are only going to see about 25-30% defensive successes. And if you stack Dex, more of that will be ripostes. If you stack Hagi more of it will be dodge.
You aren't making sense to me, I had 2400 hagi during that one cc spider parse, if i had that back in ToV days my dodge chance would not have been 0.
also, hdex improves parry chance, so why is my parry chance near 0?
I might understand what you are saying but i don't see how that doesn't constitute a cap. if my avoidance can't go above a certain %, then that's a cap. if i add more riposte, and that ultimately lowers my dodge, that's a cap and not really beneficial to add more chance to riposte.
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