Raid boss strikethrough, or not?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Yahsha, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. Yahsha Journeyman

    Morning all,
    Overlooking Raid Tank parses lately, and it would seem as though not every Riposte is strikethrough by the Raid boss. Few parses and a log below to substantiate the claim.

    (All tanks very similarly geared, CoV tradeskill raid with a couple ToL items, major differences are HStat builds - Dex builds have higher Riposte rates)

    Tank parses are from Aten Ha Ra raid:

    Kraizzie | Total Melee | Damage: 47130779 | Avg hit: 50193 | Attempts: 1744 | Riposted: 432/1744 [24.77%] | Parried: 95/1312 [7.24%] | Dodged: 48/1217 [3.94%] | Defended: 575/1744 [32.97%] | Missed: 230/1169 [19.67%] | Hits: 939/1169 [80.33%] | Hit% - 53.8
    Szintar | Total Melee | Damage: 44215357 | Avg hit: 51533 | Attempts: 2053 | Riposted: 921/2053 [44.86%] | Parried: 84/1132 [7.42%] | Dodged: 4/1048 [0.38%] | Defended: 1009/2053 [49.15%] | Missed: 186/1044 [17.82%] | Hits: 858/1044 [82.18%] | Hit% - 41.8
    Axeramm | Total Melee | Damage: 37263412 | Avg hit: 54399 | Attempts: 1185 | Riposted: 233/1185 [19.66%] | Parried: 111/952 [11.66%] | Dodged: 50/841 [5.95%] | Defended: 394/1185 [33.25%] | Missed: 106/791 [13.4%] | Hits: 685/791 [86.6%] | Hit% - 57.8
    Yahsha | Total Melee | Damage: 23505275 | Avg hit: 44266 | Attempts: 1139 | Riposted: 276/1139 [24.23%] | Parried: 81/863 [9.39%] | Dodged: 21/782 [2.69%] | Defended: 378/1139 [33.19%] | Missed: 230/761 [30.22%] | Hits: 531/761 [69.78%] | Hit% - 46.6
    Raago | Total Melee | Damage: 21669501 | Avg hit: 64493 | Attempts: 835 | Riposted: 313/835 [37.49%] | Parried: 42/522 [8.05%] | Dodged: 1/480 [0.21%] | Defended: 356/835 [42.63%] | Missed: 143/479 [29.85%] | Hits: 336/479 [70.15%] | Hit%: 40.2

    Example of strikethrough, usually occurs within first 3-4 lines of text from the riposte.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to pierce Szintar, but Szintar ripostes! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Szintar's thorns for 20912 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Aten Ha Ra pierces Szintar for 56291 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)


    Examples of riposte, with no strikethrough:
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:07 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Szintar, but Szintar ripostes!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:07 2022] Szintar kicks Aten Ha Ra for 16563 points of damage. (Riposte Crippling Blow)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:07 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 119675 points of damage. (Riposte Crippling Blow)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:07 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 62497 points of damage. (Riposte Critical)

    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Szintar, but Szintar ripostes!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Szintar kicks Aten Ha Ra for 10229 points of damage. (Riposte)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 97043 points of damage. (Riposte Lucky Critical)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Szintar, but Szintar ripostes!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Szintar tries to kick Aten Ha Ra, but misses! (Riposte)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 102543 points of damage. (Riposte Lucky Critical)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Szintar's thorns for 20912 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra pierces Szintar for 48352 points of damage. (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Szintar's thorns for 20912 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:10 2022] Aten Ha Ra pierces Szintar for 61584 points of damage. (Strikethrough)

    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Szintar, but Szintar ripostes!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Szintar kicks Aten Ha Ra for 12969 points of damage. (Riposte)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 136531 points of damage. (Riposte Critical)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:45:11 2022] Szintar slashes Aten Ha Ra for 137197 points of damage. (Riposte Critical)

    Examples of dodge, no strikethrough:
    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Axeramm, but Axeramm dodges!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Axeramm, but Axeramm ripostes! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Axeramm's thorns for 12520 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra slashes Axeramm for 53684 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    (As the above example may not be clear, added another. Axeramm clearly dodges, but Dakanez does not - even though it is simply rampage)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Axeramm, but Axeramm dodges!
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra is stunned by a blinding light.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra slows down.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Dakanez, but Dakanez parries! (Rampage)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Dakanez's thorns for 12507 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra was chilled to the bone for 5086 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:34 2022] Aten Ha Ra slashes Dakanez for 44576 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough Rampage)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:35 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to pierce Dakanez, but Dakanez dodges! (Rampage)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:35 2022] Aten Ha Ra is pierced by Dakanez's thorns for 12507 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:35 2022] Aten Ha Ra was chilled to the bone for 5086 points of non-melee damage.
    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:35 2022] Aten Ha Ra pierces Dakanez for 47948 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough Rampage)
    niente likes this.
  2. josh Augur

    gamparse is useless for tanking at the moment. use eqlogparser, it does kinda seem like there's something there but the messaging and the nuance of it all is so messed up I don't even know if I trust a parser to tell me what's happening.

    in eqlogparser you can right click an entry in the tanking summary and get more detailed breakdowns.
  3. Krazzi Elder

    Look at how many times you get hit that round when the mob gets a strikethrough. Sometimes its as much as 6 extra hits the mob is getting. Also, it seems like if your tanking more then one mob they all end up getting strikethrough at the same time.
  4. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    There are no extra hits in that log.
  5. Yahsha Journeyman

    I will agree that the parser - any parser for that matter - won't tell the full story.

    The common belief among Raid Tanks is that dodge and riposte are useless on raids because raid bosses strikethrough it all. The logs confirm that is not the case.

    The parser can help figure our how much that matters (taken with a grain of salt - see first comment in post).

    In the end, it becomes a conversation of Heroic Sta, Heroic Dex, or Heroic Agi for raid tanks. Based on the parse above, I am (personally) torn between Sta (melee shielding) and Dex (riposte).

    A lot more testing to be done to settle that, but I think the one thing we can say for sure is: Raid Boss Strikethrough is not 100%. If I had to ballpark it, I would say that it is closer to....maybe 60-80%?
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    Not quite that. All you can say for sure is that ToV AHR raid boss doesn't have 100% strike through.
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    I think Krazzi was generalizing. Consider when your player swings 4-6 times in a round and the mob happens to riposte and strike through all of your swings for extra swings of their own.

    I believe the patch has made it so mobs asymmetrically win strike through exchanges. Melee swings are initiated in two ways:
    1. attacking swing (includes flurry, rampage, frenzy, etc.)
    2. riposte (of attacker) swing
    For a given round the total number of swings is equal to the sum of attacks + ripostes. Riposte swings are a subset of (<=) attacker swings. The patch insures that the mob wins any exchange that they strike through. With very high strike through, a round of ripostes is biased in the mob's favor, appearing as "extra" swings.

    Let's break down a couple of examples:

    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra tries to slash Axeramm, but Axeramm ripostes! (Strikethrough)
    [Sun Feb 06 19:48:06 2022] Aten Ha Ra slashes Axeramm for 53684 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough)

    AHR initiates a slash attack swing. Axeramm ripostes it and strikes through, but that riposte swing is not logged because AHR performs a strike through against it. AHR also ripostes that hidden swing and does slash damage. This seems like an "extra" swing for AHR. Actually, it's simply converting the original defended attack into a hit.


    [Sun Feb 06 19:32:35 2022] Aten Ha Ra pierces Dakanez for 47948 points of damage. (Riposte Strikethrough Rampage)

    AHR initiates a Rampage attack swing. Dakanez must have Riposted it (right?), but that is not logged because AHR performed a strike through. The Rampage swing hits and does damage. It's not really "extra" unless you consider that Dakanez now has no chance of winning a strike through exchange.

    The end result of the patch is that the riposte skill gives mobs an extra chance to hit you on any given swing, because they win the strike through exchanges. So we might conclude that heroic dexterity is now detrimental to tanks.
  8. josh Augur


    It does appear as if we can avoid attacks in ToL, but it's literally just ToL, I'm looking at recent fights against old expansions and it's all still 100% strikethrough.

    One thing you have to watch out for when determining these thing is whether or not an avoidance disc was activated, especially shield block discs because they don't actually give you 100% block chance, they seem to just negate strikethough, here is a 'for instance' of me checking for parries on old mobs


    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:03 2022] You begin casting Shield Flash.
    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:07 2022] A shrouded bat tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!
    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:07 2022] A shrouded bat tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!
    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:09 2022] A shrouded bat tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!
    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:09 2022] A shrouded bat tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!
    [Tue Feb 01 20:14:10 2022] A shrouded bat tries to bite YOU, but YOU parry!

    None of these are legit parries they are just because of shield flash.

    It does appear as if I am successfull at dodge/parry/riposte/block against ToL raid mobs. If it's true, and i can't imagine how it isn't, I'm annoyed they didn't tell us.

    If hdex is allowing us to riposte again, then what heroic to go for is not a question, especially for knights. it's hdex, by a mile. even if you can parse some miniscule difference between tanking ability, the dps boost provided by hdex is HUGE, relatively speaking. hdex was already the correct choice simply because of how tiny the improvement provided by hsta and hagi is. They are much bigger now but this literally does nothing but make hdex even better.
  9. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    Annoyingly, if it's true: is it intended and will it remain this way?

    As much as I disliked the previous design, changing designs (without any announcement) is also frustrating.
  10. josh Augur


    Yeah seriously, especially considering how difficult it is to get a full set of type 5 augs. this genuinely needs a dev response in my opinion. I'm not going to recommend people spend weeks getting all type 5 hdex augs if they are going to change this.
  11. Szilent Augur

    even though that's the right thing to do regardless?
  12. Yahsha Journeyman

    There are no avoidance or riposte discs going in those parses. They are legit.
  13. Yahsha Journeyman

    I would agree with you, however, the Hit % rate is significantly lower for the tanks with the Dex builds in the tank parses. Which indicates that Dex plays a more significant role to avoid attacks than receive them.

    In order.
    Raago (Dex) - 40.2
    Szintar (Dex) - 41.8
    Yahsha (Sta) - 46.6
    Kraizzie (Mix) - 53.8
    Axeramm (Mix) - 57.8
  14. josh Augur


    it's debatable if hdex doesn't improve parry/riposte chance, its extra debatable if it's a warrior. it's not at all debatable if its an sk and hdex does improve parry/riposte chance.
  15. Szilent Augur

    bosses or all enemies? direct melee or AE rampage?
  16. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    That's not correct.

    Dakanez never had a chance of "winning" against an NPC strikethrough. Strikethrough means just that, it hits you. Period.

    Prior to the change Dakanez would have hit for damage because he riposted, but AHR would STILL have struck through and hit them. What was changed was the strikethrough roll was moved up, to eliminate the riposte hit from dakanez since AHR's original hit was a strikethrough.


    Prior to the change it would have looked like this:

    1. AHR attacks
    2. D rolls riposte
    3. D does damage
    4. AHR rolls strikethrough (for their original swing)
    5. AHR hits D.

    What was changed was #4 was moved to #3 and the old #3 was eliminated so it looks like this:

    1. AHR attacks
    2. D rolls riposte
    3. AHR rolls strikethrough
    4. AHR hits D.

    And #2 #3 don't show a message, they get shown as (riposte strikethrough) in the hit for #4, which eliminates messaging.
  17. josh Augur


    i would guess yahsha and raago used glyph given how high their miss rate is.

    but also, gamparse hasn't been updated for tanking in a while and when it's a riposte strikethough, that is counted as an attempt, and when the mob hits you as a result of that strikethough that is also counted. that's why the riposte rate is so high, so those numbers just aren't very useful.
  18. Yahsha Journeyman

    No, no one used glyph. Just using defensive and stacking mitigation.

    The parse above is ONLY against Aten Ha Ra herself. No other mobs.
  19. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    Strikethrough was definitely lowered in ToL, as evidenced by the fact you actually CAN riposte/block/parry/dodge.

    It doesn't appear to have been changed for older fights, most likely because it would require rebalancing those raids.
  20. Wulfhere Augur

    You are implying that a strike through swing that misses is also suppressed in the log?