Ragefire Rotation Discussion

Bottom line is if the majority of guild leaders sign off on the new proposed rotation doesn't matter what two guilds stuck on the existing one say. DBG will go with the majority. All the mud slinging in the world isn't going to change that. But it does make for entertaining reading while I am at work.

Guilds get (under both proposals) three hours to kill their targets. I don't think it would have been fair to put the discussions on hold, especially with two Euro guilds present (this was like 3am for Bonlgon and he had to get up for work just a few hours later).

Delaying the raids probably would have been a lot more fair, I don't believe anyone suggested it unfortunately.

That said, I am comfortable allowing that they left to raid rather than out of disagreement. Hopefully in future discussions guilds who have a raid target spawn will either request a recess or ask for a delayed kill window. A very simple option is that the 1 or 2 needed parties for the conversations continue at the table while the other ~70 people in the guild kill the target.

1. [Fri Jul 31 18:07:53 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'no one go into naggy's room he just spawn
2. [Fri Jul 31 18:28:38 2015] Dojii tells the raid, 'I gotta get going here soon guys. so yea... let's do this again'
3. [Fri Jul 31 19:53:11 2015] Sagnid tells the raid, 'Good night.'

Forgive the formatting, these are the last two times that the GL's of RoE and Apokalypsis spoke. The discussion continues for about another hour and a half.
I still think all raiding should be put on hold until the new guilds are vetted and then a new rotation agreed on.
But...that's just one little bear's opinion.

Leadership is more than welcome to refer to http://www.ragefireforums.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=21

They will need to get their account verified, and leaders can openly discuss the rotation that the majority agreed to. If 51%+ of the guilds agree to the proposals suggested, alterations will be made.

I am not oppose to making changes to the new rotation. I prefer the channels to be public however so all guilds may review them.

No thanks bro, I'd rather them post here. I get some good entertainment out of the leadership of RoE/Apok throw fits like children instead of have any kind of constructive conversation about changes to the rotation. Even more entertaining watch them talk about deception, whats better for other guilds that aren't their own, and unfairness when one of the two guilds was added unfairly to the rotation while the other guild tried to create a rotation without the input of other guilds which is deception at it's finest. Glad you guys came to an agreement with the majority ruling. People won't always agree but majority rules. Thanks for all the transparency of the logs and transparency with the ragefire forums for non-leadership to read.

Please use the existing rotation thread. Thanks.

I am a member of False Prophecy. I have never raided any of these mobs, and I do not speak for my guild. I am only speaking for myself on this. I find this rotation to be fair. Our guild has the best shot at killing these mobs during prime time. We have families, jobs and other things that we have to keep in balance with our hobby of EQ. If any of these mobs were to spawn in the middle of the night/early morning our guild realistically has 0 chance to kill it. So we really don't care that those times are FFA. I again speaking for myself only really care about the main prime time slots because that is when I am able to raid.

I am sure many of the other smaller raiding guilds are in the same exact boat as we are. This rotation was made fairly with the guild leaders in a raid discussing things. The previous rotation was made by RoE and Apokalypsis behind closed doors without anyones input. I understand that TL will get a lot of the FFA mobs, and I don't really care. What I wanted was a SHOT at killing these mobs and that is exactly what we will have it it spawns in our window. We will know that it's due, we'll be ready and waiting for it. We might fail a few times, but in the long run we'll get the experience needed to kill everything.

The greed that Breeze the leader of RoE has showed on these forums is just incredible to me. Considering all she does is say how greedy TL is. I just want to point out that Breeze and Dojii made a rotation behind closed doors. They never talked to anyone about it and they LIED to DBG saying this is the will of the server. The discussion that happened last evening is the TRUE will of the server. The reason why all these RoE and Apokalypsis people are posting is because they don't want to let the smaller guilds into the rotation so that they can have more raid mobs to themselves. They don't want to compete with TL for FFA mobs so they want to keep us out of the raiding scene.

To that I say the server has caught on to your scheme and we will no longer accept it. You were going against the will of the server all last night from what it sounds so that you can keep us from raiding. While I have had many negative run-ins with TL. I've had far more with Apokalypsis and Breeze has done nothing but lie and try to insult the intelligence of the Ragefire community with her anti-TL rhetoric.

Just a nameless small raiding guild member.

And when RoE fails CT their next shot, they will likely be off the rotation anyways....Just like they got CT when you guys failed with the current rotation. They will still get the majority of the spawns because they can raid 24x7 for the most part and everyone else can't.

I also saw someone make the suggestion to change the trading rule on the current rotation to make it where you can't trade away your next boss spawn if you've failed it - that way you can't keep putting off the risk of failing it again and getting removed.

When will you, and everyone else realize - no matter the rotation - the guild that can field a raid more times than others will ALWAYS get more spawns than other guilds? Even with the current rotation, TL will STILL get 70% of the spawns, or more, depending on who fails what. The trade system that is implemented now is silly, IMO - because it gives people who are gonna miss their slot the ability to hope for it to spawn when they can have folks on in the future....which, technically, goes against the idea of the rotation.

Now, I'm not one to make it where someone misses their slot (example, Vox spawns at 3AM on a Tuesday morning and a rotation guild can't get it due to not enough folks being on, thus it goes FFA) and gets removed from the rotation - because, again, that benefits the guild that can FFA it at that time (which, lets be honest, is really only TL).

Everyone keeps about how TL gets more mobs...well, the new proposed rotation has 12 hours of FFA in there. If you don't want them to get more mobs, then FFA it first. It's no different than the current rotation. Someone doesn't engage it in the 3 hour slot, go get it first - nothing is stopping you.

The proposed solution, technically, doesn't give TL more mobs really - because if naggy spawns at 6PM est, there's 3 guilds in that timeslot that have a shot at it before it goes to FFA. Whereas on the current rotation, the guild who gets naggy has 3 hours, then it goes FFA. Sure if TL is due up 2nd for the mob in that slot at the time, they will get it - but they would get it after 3 hours of another guild wiping.

Your comment "Seems people have a hard time understanding the capacity to kill a target, and a lack of opportunity to kill a target" is true.

Capacity to kill a target is being able to have enough raiders on, at the time that the mob spawns, be it 3PM, 10PM, 2AM, 8AM - that's the capacity to do it.

Opportunity to kill it is being given a chance to kill a mob (along with whatever other criteria - time slots, etc).

If someone can kill the gatekeeper (Proposed Spiroc Lord) they are showing the potential capacity to kill a boss. The rotation then gives them that opportunity.

RoE had the capacity (82 raiders) to kill Inny on their second attempt the other day. They did not have the capacity to kill CT (because they failed during their time slot) and he went FFA, and TL got him. RoE was given the opportunity to kill Inny and CT because they were on the rotation.

It's not that hard to understand.

Another example - Remnants of Prexus (my guild) doesn't have the capacity to kill the revamped bosses - we need more folks planar level/ready - be it recruiting more, more folks in the guild leveling up, etc. Even once we have that, depending on when a boss spawns, we may not have the capacity - because even if we had 80 people that were L50, if we couldn't have them on at 4AM on a Thursday morning, we couldn't kill a spawn.

Thus, we won't have the opportunity to kill the bosses until we can get enough folks to kill the Spiroc Lord (or KoS for the current rotation), and then getting a shot boss mob and hoping that it spawns when we can have enough people on...

It's not difficult to understand.

Marth

I find it amazing that Apok and RoE were championing how the old rotation was fair and the whole server would benefit and now, once 8 out of 10 guilds (or 7 out of 9, if you want to not include The Last Guardian for your own arbitrary reasons) have stated they want something, they claim it's not fair and apparently even stoop to the level of essentially calling every other guild too stupid to understand what they agreed to. I've seen some interesting negotiating ploys in my day but that's a new one even for me.

Look, if you want something to benefit your own guild, just come out and say that. If you want something to benefit the server, come out and say that. The way in which you went about claiming #2 with it being woefully transparent that you were after #1 is insulting to everybody.

Here's what it really boils down to: based on the "but TL will get lots of mobs with this agreement!" talking point I've seen pop up here a few times, more than anything it's become quite apparent that Apok and RoE's main interests appear to lie more in preventing TL from killing mobs than allowing anybody else access to those mobs.

But hey, I guess everybody needs some phantom villain to fight against to make themselves feel better.

Gee.. with a community like this why would anyone want to transfer to lockjaw!

Don't fight it bro. You got your little secret deceptive backdoor agreement for a while, enjoy it while it lasts.

It's very telling to me that everyone acts like it's a given that TL will get all the FFA slots, and counts that against them.

If you want more than token loot, you should be forced to take it from them. First, I am sick of all the whining and crying about TL. They are less underhanded than most of the top guilds that I have seen. Which brings me to point number 2. Part of me wants to see TL get knocked off their perch. Some of their members walk around here with such smugness it's hard to take. I played on other TLPs. I played original. I personally don't think TL stacks up with some of the other guilds I have seen, but I can't say for certain because they are literally getting no competition here. Maybe they rise to the occasion(or sink to the level it takes to win, it's all perspective). I am in a win win if TL gets some real competition. If TL wins, I can say, good for them, they deserve that smug sense of self satisfaction, or they fall flat and I can say the same about the other guild.

The only thing worse than rotations for current content are the rotations that are coming out of this server. Some people can't grasp that TL deserves most of the loot, because they are more capable than the other guilds combined. Casuals shouldn't get to kill Nagy in era. Shitties shouldn't be able to kill Nagy for 2 or 3 xpacs. I personally am struggling to figure out TL's end game, because they know how these servers drop members like flies. Maybe they don't care if the server goes past GoD. Maybe they have more faith than me in the shitties, and think they will be capable raiders come GoD.(But you know the game has been out for 15 years...) While I believe they have been more than fair, their policies don't seem in line with gaining new members once the attrition starts. With a new server already announced, it's going to be interesting to see this all unfold.

Just curious as looking at the old and new rotations. I don't see where a guild failing to kill a target twice will have them removed from a rotation?

On the first rotation I see a proposed change that would do that, but I fail to see it in any of the current rules. I personally have no stake in all of this as I am new here, just curious as to how these things are being done so when I do decide to join the raid scene, I know what i will be getting myself into.

CAF is 40 players with me and Saytonic, not including the 4 other 6 boxers and everyone else that plays...so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but they are wrong.

If you did that, then RoE wouldn't have enough to raid with.

If most folks that aren't in TL would understand it (though "second rate" isn't really what I would use. I would say "not able to have enough raiders on 24x7 to kill stuff") this problem would go away.

People need to realize - in EQ, going back to PoP and earlier, most servers has 1 uberguild at the top killing stuff, then a bunch of 2nd tier guilds killing some stuff, maybe, in the current expansion and likely racing/whatever for content from the previous expansion, and then a handful behind those killing some stuff an expansion behind and even the expansion behind that.

That's generally how it has been on all EQ servers. Once GoD comes along, raids are instanced, etc, and it doesn't matter.

Any logical person would agree - TL will get 95% of the FFA mobs (50%). Don't like it? Do something about it. Beat em to the FFA mob. DPS race them with more people. Win.

Any rotation, except one that doesn't have FFA rules, TL will get 95%+ of those FFA mobs - no doubt about it.

Any rotation without any form of FFA rules, even after a guild wipes/doesn't kill within their slot, will just reduce the number of kills on the server, etc, anyways. Thus, getting more opportunities (see my earlier post) for people to have a chance, helps those out who may never see the boss while trying to reduce the number of wasted spawns.

He would also still be out voted, I'm not sure he understands how majorities work.

And technically, any of the 4 current rotation guilds can call for DB to be a tiebreaker vote. And they should.

And if DB votes that the new proposal is better as it allows more folks opportunities, then what?

Or if another guild gets on the rotation, and then the vote is 3-2, then what? After all, TL didn't approve the current rotation as it was implemented by DB, so it's obvious that DB doesn't necessarily care about semantics.