Questions on Enchanter Synergy From A Wizard

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Cragzop, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    Do enchanters not get to partake in their own synergy buff for extra damage?

    Ran my boxed enchanter (max aas, rank 2 spells) on a set of missions with guild mates last night and noticed I needed to work on his lineup/setup a bit. So in the guild hall messing with spells and noticed ... I can't get the synergy buff to leave the enchanter's song window.

    I'm using a rotation of mindrift, mindslash, pulmonary grip, mind coil ... and the buff is always there. Now, I'd expect mindrift to keep the buff since it will trigger synergy ... but none of the other spells will remove the synergy buff. I have to go down to the level 70 Ancient: Neurosis spell before I can make the synergy buff go away (since all the chanter spells above that seem to be chromatic).

    The buff disappears fine from others in the group casting various fire, cold and magic spells. Cleric chromatic spells fail to remove the buff (but their magic ones work fine).

    Am I missing something?
    RPoo likes this.
  2. Sancus Augur

    Beguiler's Synergy is limited to Magic, Fire, and Cold spells. Chromatic spells do not pass the limit checks on the focus:

    [21685/49726] Beguiler's Synergy III
    Classes: ENC/254
    Skill: Melee
    Target: Caster Group, MGB: No
    AE Range: 100'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Stacking: Beguiler's Synergy 3
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 12s (2 ticks) Song, Dispelable: No
    Max Hits: 1 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Spell Damage by 55% (v461, Before Crit)
    2: Limit Resist: Magic
    3: Limit Resist: Fire
    4: Limit Resist: Cold
    5: Limit Max Level: 249 (lose 100% per level)
    6: Limit Effect: Current HP less than -100
    7: Limit Effect: Current HP Non Repeating less than -100
    Text: Your magic resonates with Beguiler's Synergy.

    Per Dzarn in EoK Beta, this is intended. FWIW, Gravity Roil is a Magic spell and therefore can consume the Synergy proc.
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  3. Szilent Augur

    Constriction dots are magic type.

    Synergy doesn't make them good dps.
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  4. KrakenReality Augur

    You have to use the other nukes, if you want to proc it. The mana return DD line would be a great candidate for rotation, if they buffed the crap out of it. Also, would be great if they add chromatic to it. I don’t think the AA developer is aware of the deficiency.
  5. Szilent Augur

    Appropriation nukes are Chromatic, not Magic, they will not use Synergy
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  6. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    So ... someone hates enchanters ... sorry enchanters.

    Yeah, I tried Gravity Flux, but evidently the spell has to not be resisted before the counter goes away (which is a good thing) ... and I just missed that fact on testing.

    So ... either chase procs with a bad dot or a pushing ae ... or just ignore them.

    Thank you for the responses.

    Side note: I did not know tash could not be skulled off (probably in the spell data but who reads spell data like that besides Sancus?)
  7. Szilent Augur

    when you get tash on you, it has a green poison counter. Tash has to be cured , not dispelled
  8. KrakenReality Augur

    Ah yes, you are correct. Thank you for the correction.
  9. Vumad Augur

    They do, just wrong spell.

    You forget that enchanters get Gift of Hazy Thoughts. I don't think any other class has a comparable group proc. It can proc off any DD or stun with an 8% chance to increase group base damage by 55%. and crit by 100%. While 8% seams low compared to the 100% of synergy lines, we have a chance to proc it from almost every spell we cast. 2 of our 3 DoTs have a direct damage component, and we fill the gaps with nukes.

    We do benefit from Haze, so in essence, we get 2 synergy lines.

    Mages get Conjurer's synergy which boosts the next fire or chromatic spell by 75%. It is bigger than beguiler's synergy but enchanter can cast mind drift a lot more often (9 second recast) than mages can cast Servant (19 seconds). In any case, enchanters pair very well with mages.
  10. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    Oh no, I love Gift of Hazy Thoughts and Gracious Gift of Mana and every thing else an enchanter brings to a group as a wizard main. But GoHT is random ... so I cannot really plan around it being there. I consider GoHT and GGoM just part of the reward of grouping with an enchanter (or playing one).

    Synergies are different ... if I see that an enchanter is casting Mindrift, I know in a few seconds I will have the buff. Same with a mage casting RS or even my own wizard cast of Vortex (my synergy works for enchanters too!). Now, most of us use spell rotations that are semi-fixed so it would be hard to really chase synergy procs ... but technically, if I waited a tenth of a second for that synergy buff to maximize an Ethereal Confluence cast rather than a Claw cast, I'd probably gain some dps. Although with the lag on raids, I feel lucky if I can just get my base rotation to cast most times these days.

    As I think about caster issues, limitations in caster synergy procs is another area where casters fall behind their melee/hybrid counterparts. Looking at their synergies, the buffs seem to try to be all inclusive of all melee types. While caster synergy buffs are limited to specific spell types ... except necros ... whose synergy buff isn't 1 counter but 12+s of sweet, sweet goodness.

    Now I hate necros more.

    Unless they are in my group casting blood.

    Seriously though, it's just another example of most casters getting the short end while melee are unencumbered.
  11. kizant Augur

    55% of SPA 461 > 75% of SPA 302
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  12. Vumad Augur

    Can you explain the 461 vs the 302. I thought they both modify the base damage of the spell and would would multiply in the same way.

    Based on that it looks like you are saying that beguiler's synergy modifies the base damage but the conjure synergy modifies the crit?
  13. kizant Augur

    Hmm I guess giving a little more detailed example couldn't hurt.

    For nukes, SPA 302 and 296 both increase your "effective" damage I guess you could call it. I've never kept up with how everyone refers to these things. Basically, when figuring this stuff out you first increase your base damage by the SPA 413 value. Then that number is used to determine the increase given by 302 and 296. If your spell does 2000 and has 10% SPA 413 it would go to 2200. Then 302 and 296 would be based on the 2200 value. If each were an additional 10% then you would get 2200 + 220 + 220 for 2640. Then that value can crit for 5280 and then you add on other SPAs like 286 and 124 that do not crit. If you have an extra 1000 from 286 and 10% SPA 124 you'd end up with 5280 + 1000 + 220 and get 6500.

    Now, SPA 461 gets applied after all that stuff I listed above. So, if you had 10% SPA 461 then that 6500 turns into 7150. It's worth 650 extra damage because it's figured out after you determine your damage for most of your SPAs and after you know what you crit for. Now, it only does this for all the old SPAs including ones I didn't list like 297 and 303. For the new SPAs like 462, 483, 484, and 502 it does not actually benefit them. Those are all determined by your effective damage or they're just plain additional amounts to append. Either way all the damage from the new SPAs are just appended to the end after you include all the old SPAs then include SPA 461 into the mix. For nukes, any SPA 461 ability is kinda overpowered.

    The interesting thing is that SPA 461 does not work this way for DoTs. It actually works exactly like SPA 302 and gets added based on the spell's base damage. Only SPA 124 values are based on effective damage for DoTs. So, for them SPA 124 is actually the strongest of the three while for Nukes it's one of the weakest. Hope some of that made sense. Sancus probably has a better description somewhere.

    Note.. If this wasn't super clear. The 302 amount accounted for 220 plus the crit so 440 damage based on a 10% value. Compared to the 650 from SPA 461. And the distance between the two will just keep increasing. if you had a 5x crit mod it would end up like 1100 extra damage vs 1442.
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  14. Vumad Augur

    Wow, that's way more complicated than I had any idea of.
    kizant likes this.
  15. Cailen Augur

    Kizant you made my head hurt!
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  16. kizant Augur

  17. Vizier Augur

    Side question, do Restless Focus potions stack with everything?
  18. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    It's basically a proc that's separate from anything (at least that I run). It will show up as Restless Strike in your damage. Base proc is 12k but can critical. Resist is disease on the proc, but at a -200 so if disease can land ... it's probably going to hit.

    As a wizard in a 90ish second fight with Zlandicar (raid), it hit 21 times for about 2 percent of my damage (no bard in group).

    Oh, it doesn't stack with a poison ... but ... you aren't really running a poison anyway ... screw rogues!

    P.S. As a reference for chanter things as a wizard during that fight:

    -Mana Rep Strike III was 3.25 percent of my damage
    -Mana Re-Rep and Re-Re-Rep were combined about 1 percent of my damage
    -NPD II was 2.5 percent of my damage
    -Composite Reinforced Strike was 1.3 percent
    -My total damage was 144M
  19. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    Yes, but also no.

    SPAs are applied in order, with the notable exception being 413 and 294 (crit)

    EQ keeps a running total of your damage, as well as the base damage of the spell. However, since the base damage itself gets modified by 413, I usually refer to it myself as "modified."

    So the order it processes is something like this:

    1. Base Damage
    2. Modified Base = (Base Damage * 413)
    3. Total Damage = Modified Base * Crit
    4. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Modified Base * 124)
    5. Total Damage = Total Damage + 286
    6. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Modified Base * 296 * Crit)
    7. Total Damage = Total Damage + 297 * Crit
    8. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Modified Base * 302 * Crit)
    9. Total Damage = Total Damage + 303 * Crit
    10. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Total Damage * 461 * Crit)
    11. Total Damage = Total Damage + 462
    12. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Modified Base * 483 * Crit)
    13. Total Damage = Total Damage + 484 * Crit
    14. Total Damage = Total Damage + (Modified Base * 507) [Kizant mistyped this as 502, he meant 507].
    15. Total Damage = Total Damage + 508?

    Now this isn't exact for various complicated reasons, (and bugs in EQ's code) but it's close enough.

    In this view you can clearly see why 461 is better than the others, (the multiplier is based on cumulative damage vs modified base) and also why 124/507 suck (they don't have a crit mod). As for WHY they don't have a crit mod, it is because crit mods didn't exist yet. DD crit is SPA 294, which was added later, and 507 is the real dup of 124.

    461 was supposed to be a duplicate of 124 for stacking purposes, but it isn't. Rather than fix it (when I told them about it) they left it and added 507, which is an actual dup of 124 (aside from the fact it has higher granularity: Base1 of 10 = 1% for 507 vs 1 = 1 for 124.

    462 is a dup of 286 (I eagerly await Scornfire adding 462 to his 286 crusade) and works the same.

    508 isn't used on anything that I'm aware of so I don't know how it works, but I assume it's another dup of 286 that was added because they added 507 and figured if they added one they needed to add the other too... who knows...

    For DoTs, things work mostly the same with a few exceptions:

    1) Flat damage mods are divided by 6.
    2) 124 uses Total Damage instead of Modified Base.
    3) 461 uses Modified Base instead of Total Damage.
  20. kizant Augur

    Well, I started working on a new app for simulating damage instead of just estimating it like my current one. It's on hold but I started testing all this from scratch and I got to a point where I'd get exact results 99% of the time. Once in a while it would be off by 1 when specifying spell damage but never more than that. Tried everything I could think of and I couldn't fix that too but there is something odd I'm missing... I've also documented some bugs too that some people may be interested in.

    Look at the calculateDamage method if you want to compare.

    Oh and it is old now so the luck calculation needs to be updated some and I never did handle wiz crits after we talked about how they work exactly. I got notes somewhere on how to do it.. One day I'll get back to this. The idea was to simulate a casting lineup and then run the simulation 100000 times and take an average instead of trying to estimate things.

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