Question about tradeskill trophy experience gain and the upcoming increase in skill caps.

Discussion in 'Tradeskill and Homeshow Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Zunnoab-Stromm, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. ARCHIVED-Zunnoab-Stromm Guest

    The way the trophy experience gain works is item combines that succeed give a certain amount of experience per combine, the amount of experience varying per tradeskill (more expensive ones take less combines), right?
    The thing is, you do not gain trophy experience if the item is at or below your current level in that tradeskill. This relates to the possibility that VoA will raise the caps above 300. People that do not have their trophy at max would have a smaller and smaller pool of viable experience paths if popular experience items become trivial.
    Is any change planned for this? Does the code for the experience gain work properly with skills above 300?
    I suppose there are a few ways it could happen:
    1.) Trophy experience gain increases when you pass 300 skill, much like it does when you are past the level required for earlier levels of trophies. This one is kind of unfair to those who took the time to max out their trophies at 300.
    2.) To gain experience with the trophy on the second from last level, any recipe 301 or above will work, even if it's trivial. This option is the status quo.
    3.) Some tradeskill trophies might get harder to level up due to recipes going trivial and their combines not working on the second from last trophy anymore. This is the "too bad" option.

    What does everyone think? Do the devs already have a plan in place for this or tested the code to see how it works with the increased cap? I'm not a huge tradeskiller, but I do have a few maxed (pottery/jewelcrafting/baking/alchemy) and this situation occurred to me the other day. I apologize if there's another discussion thread on the topic.
    Edit: Changed title so it doesn't throw max post title errors when people respond.
  2. ARCHIVED-Noircogi Guest

    I'm only moderately versed in tradeskills, but my understanding is that you get one point of trophy advancement for every 9 successful non-trivial combines. I don't think it varies by tradeskill, but I've only ever done trophies at higher levels.
  3. ARCHIVED-Zunnoab-Stromm Guest

    Noircogi wrote:
    It does. It takes many more baking combines than say tailoring. I think it was about 1200 combines to get my Denmother's Rolling Pin, maybe a bit less. If they all take the same number of combines then there's some mass misinformation going around since I've heard they level up at different rates a few times. I got my Jeweler's Glass over a very long period of time so I have no idea how many combines that took.
    Regardless, I'm curious how the skill cap increase will affect things.
  4. ARCHIVED-Aldier_CT Guest

    You have a little bit of a misconception as to how the trophies currently gain experience. When you have your trophy equipped and you succeed at a combine, then the trivial of that combine is the amount of experience that your trophy earns. This is up to 350. Any recipe 350 and above gets rounded down to 350 experience added to the trophy. The disparity on how many combines it takes to evolve the trophy does vary from skill to skill but not because you gain experience faster or slower but because it takes more or less experience to reach the next level. Additionally, this explains why anyone at 250 raw skill or higher can use any non-trivial recipe to work towards evolving their trophies as you must use a combine within 100 points of your raw skill. So at 250, you must use something between 251 and 350 (but everything above 350 counts the same as 350) experience to level the trophy.
    As to the potential for a skill cap increase, that does not necessarily guarentee or even require a trophy level increase. However, in the course of skilling up from 300 to 350 or whatever the new cap may be if it is indeed raised, you will continue to gain experience on the Master (6/7) trophy until they evolve into their current final form 7/7 version.
    Recipe: MTP, trivial = 335
    Exp needed to evolve your trophy from 6/7 to 7/7 = 350,000 exp. This is why it takes between 1100-1200 combines of MTPs to reach that point. Given the standard 95% success rate on combines.
    Recipe: Wood Elf Cultural Arrow, trivial = 335
    Exp needed to evolve the fletching trophy is considerably less. This is a unique case recipe because of the race/deity restrictions but that is not the discussion here. It only takes around 450-500 combines thus putting the exp needed to reach 7/7 around 175,000 exp.
  5. ARCHIVED-Zunnoab-Stromm Guest

    There will not be new trophy levels. That is already confirmed.
    Let's give a hypothetical scenario though. Someone gets up to say 350 or 400 skill or whatever the cap is, and THEN they first do their trophy. They will get a second from last level trophy. Is this a too bad situation that all the items 301-350 or 301-400 do not give experience, or will items 301+ give experience as is the status quo?
    As to how the experience works, I had no idea higher items give more experience until now, thanks.
  6. ARCHIVED-Aldier_CT Guest

    I very highly doubt they will suddenly let a trivial combine give exp to your trophy.
    They may make it so that if you are between 300-350 that, like now, it partially evolves the trophy to match your skill. If not, at 350, it could be like you are 1 level higher and the trophy will evolve at the accelerated rate. If they take the cap to 400, then I am not sure what they will do.
  7. ARCHIVED-Give Guest

    I don't believe that hooey for a second about the varying combine skill levels changing the amount of combines per 1%; I've used a multitude of recipes from 301 to 350+ and it always takes the same number of successes per 1%, that number varying only by trophy, not by level of combine (exception noted in second paragraph). Even if that were somehow true, the original concern is not anything to worry about.
    Don't forget, if you reach the raw skill that matches the trophy level before your trophy evolves to that next level, your speed increases dramatically (4-10fold depending on the skill). In other words, if you have a level 6 trophy and you make it to 350 raw skill, your evolution will hit the fast track, and the amount of remaining time to finish it will be, for lack of a better word, trivial.
  8. ARCHIVED-Aldier_CT Guest

    Give wrote:
    Choose to believe it or not. There are plenty of threads on these boards from back when the trophies were first introduced where people went through every skill and tested the amount of combines to evolve a trophy. I found explicitly that 335 trivial combines took MORE combines than 350 combines. It is not hooey, it is fact.
    As far as the guarentee that upon reaching 350 skill that the trophy will begin gaining exp at the accelerated rate is not known for sure at this time. As far as how much that increase is, it is 10 times the disparity. If you have skilled beyond your trophy's tier then it gains exp at 11 times the normal rate. If you are 2 tiers above your trophy, then it would skill up at 21 times normal until it reached the next tier then would drop to 11 times for the prior tier to you until it evened out with you.
  9. ARCHIVED-Thulack Guest

    Aldier_CT wrote:
    Yeah i remember seeing that post on Eqtraders back when the were first introduced and Aldier did testing as well as others i believe to confirm it.
  10. ARCHIVED-Give Guest

    Aldier_CT wrote:
    I'm afraid that contradicts my direct experience as well. Most skills require 4 combines per 1% after reaching the bonus range that we're talking about (I can't remember for tinkering, and I haven't done it for all skills . . . usually my trophy evolved waaaaay before I reached the balancing raw skill level).
  11. ARCHIVED-Aldier_CT Guest

    Give wrote:
    4 combines or 4 successes? The trophy will only gain experience on a success. If you are attempting very very high trivial combines that you are not succeeding on then they will not help the trophy evolve quickly. The data I very much doubt has changed from what the developers STATED the rate was.
    As far as your trophy evolving faster than your skill is the opposite of what you are describing here. Again, the data given is more to do with the Expert, Master, and fully evolved levels of the trophies. I do not have specific data on the amount of experience required to evolve the lower levels of the trophy.
  12. ARCHIVED-gcubed Guest

    Zunnoab-Stromm wrote:
    There is a gotcha in your scenario.
    For a trophy to gain experience, you have to make a successful non-trivial combine. Furthermore, the difficulty of the combine has to be within 100 of your skill.
    What this means is that a person with a 200 skill can only get experience on their trophy by successfully combining a recipe that has a trivial of 201 though 300. If they are using a recipe with a trivial of 302, their trophy will not gain experience until their skill reaches 202.
    The gotcha is that for the purposes of trophy evolution all recipes with a trivial of over 350 are treated as 350. So a person with a skill of 250 could use any non-trivial recipe even those that exceed the 100 point limit. But a person with a skill of 350 (or higher) that didn't have their trophy fully evolved would not be able to get experience on their trophy, since (for the purposes of trophy evolution) all recipes would be trivial. That part of the code will have to change, if it hasn't already.
  13. ARCHIVED-danille Guest

    It was announced during fan faire that TS caps would not be increased in the VoA expansion.
  14. ARCHIVED-Zunnoab-Stromm Guest

    gcubed wrote:
    Good catch.

    danille wrote:
    Ah, they just announced that they can do it when they want to?
  15. ARCHIVED-wudedorm Guest

    danille wrote:
    thank god, spent long enough getting them all to 300(well cept research but im broke type warrior lol) dont really want to work 50-100 more on all them atm
  16. ARCHIVED-gcubed Guest

    wudedorm wrote:
    The increase in the tradeskill caps can happen at any time. We know it won't be a part of the VoA release. We don't know anything beyond that. In other words it is conceivable that an cap increase could occur sometime next Spring or Summer.

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