Proposed SK Nerf Alternative

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Soulrheever, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. Soulrheever Journeyman

    Removing the ability for leech effects to function on riposte would significantly alter the way SKs play the game, our effectiveness as a class, and critically damage the ability to have fun crushing older content. This has been discussed ad nauseam, and it is not my intent to rehash the same arguments and complaints until we're all blue in the face. Instead, what I would like to do, is present the Devs with an alternative that addresses both their concerns and ours (the SK community).

    [I am aware that this is not technically an "SK Nerf", as it is an adjustment to a game mechanic, but realistically it will impact Shadowknights at a drastically higher level than other classes.]

    It is my understanding that the logic behind this change is to curb the sort of rampant abuses seen in videos posted that show people doing some rather insane things in current content, tanking a dozen or more mobs simultaneously without need for any sort of external healing.
    In order to prevent those sorts of tactics, while also maintaining our ability to function in the way we've grown accustomed over years of being built around this mechanic, I would like to propose the following alternative:

    - Reduce the hit counter on Mortal Coil from ~1300 to ~1000.
    --- A relatively small decrease, but I find that those last 300 or so hits are typically where the timing on hit-rate and duration tend to converge, and removal of some of those hit counters would significantly reduce the ability's effectiveness in mass-tanking situations, especially in more modern content, without having any real impact on the ability to tank a reasonable number or mobs or a larger number in older content.

    - Increase the chance that Mortal Residue fires from ~10% to something closer to 75% or even higher.
    --- This will prevent the sort of infinite refresh loop that allows for absurd sustainability levels using Mortal Coil (which was the initial point of introducing Mortal Residue) at a much more reasonable rate. Having Mortal Residue trigger more often than not will still allow the use of a Mortal Coil proc to be used for one mid-size pull, but would then require another separate trigger before being able to pull again.

    - Increase the duration of Mortal Residue by a small amount, an extra 12-18 seconds, maybe even longer if deemed necessary.
    --- This will further reduce the ability to chain large pulls back to back. The use of our Epic click and Leechcurse Discipline might allow for a couple large pulls in a row if they're used as stop-gap measures, but would at most only allow 3, maybe 4.

    If all of these changes are implemented together, it would allow us to maintain our core functionality and class defining abilities while also significantly curtailing the possibility of their abuse.

    Please bear in mind that this is being presented as an ALTERNATIVE to the proposed changes, and not as something that should be done instead of nothing.
    I appreciate any consideration the Devs may give to this idea, and feedback is welcome to improve upon the concept in the hopes of making a stronger case for what is, as I see it, a more reasonable addressing of a perceived issue.

    Thank you.
  2. Khauruk Augur

    This is a much much better solution to the problem.
  3. Seldom Augur

    Soulrheever, that was a nice and constructive post. Personally, I'd prefer if they just didn't do any of the leech nerfs and just nerfed shield defensive profiency for all tanks. When I group or solo on my Shadowknight I always push the limits as that's just what I find fun. It often ends up looking the same as the videos that have been posted in other threads. Just for sheer laughs and for sake of making things harder/more challenging, I've "attempted" to do the exact same things after deactivating shield profiency(especially while soloing) and the results are quick death. I think it'd be very wise for Devs to look at all the current main tank defensive disciplines/aa's and give each more cookie cutter similar SpA's across the board for the main ones and nerf the perma uptime mitigation of shielding profiency by merely equipping shield. Things have really gotten out of hand and ridiculous since it's introduction. Second, decide on something intelligent to do about aggro generation. It was stated aggro was suppose to be a "concern" and mean something. Shadowknights/Warriors can hold unbreakable aggro on an entire zone of mobs, zero issue, with DPS classes having zero worry of pulling aggro. Paladin AE aggro is ridiculously low and even single target hate generation lags behind as well. Address both those things in some logical manner and we won't have a return of these issues
  4. Soulrheever Journeyman

    Another change that may help:

    -Make Lich Sting (Epic click) and Mortal Coil mutually exclusive: they don't stack.
    --- This would prevent the ability to segue from one leech method into another, a transition that needs to happen smoothly in mega-pulls so as to avoid instant-death.
  5. Soulrheever Journeyman

    I agree there are other issues that need to be addressed as well, but for now I would like to remain focused on the immediate issue. Of course it would be best if the nerf was abandoned all together, but that doesn't seem as likely as coming to a more palatable method of addressing the issue.

    Once this has been resolved, perhaps a deeper discussion of the Weapon-Stance system is in order.
  6. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    I see we have gotten to the third stage of grief in a nerf. Bargaining.
    Tucoh and Drusi like this.
  7. Sindaiann Augur

    I've had these discussions as well with my guildies Soul and that's exactly what I said devs should of done.

    Lower the MC hit counter and up the % of MR occuring. Not sure starting at 75% would be smart but I also said cutting MC in half was smart, so 1320 to that's fairly extreme too.

    Some form of this would of been much better though
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  8. Tereil Elder

    epic and MC could have same amount of counters.
  9. Nickali New Member

    it's all about money just outlaw pling and and fix the patcher log in and servers so many better things to do with the time
  10. Bamkan Augur

    I'm not sure if you've tried the changes out on test.

    It isn't as bad as you think it could be. Sure if you are swarming 30+ LB's in valley , then are gonnna have a bad time.

    But folks doing 5-10 mobs at a time with the right AC values aren't really gonna be effected.
  11. Swiss Augur

    What are the right AC values? Is it group or raid geared. I think the biggest issue with this nerf is it doesn't stop someone in max gear with a group from swarming but hurts lots of players in the group game.

    The real problem behind people swarming LBs in valley is we have had a giant gear increase with no levels so farming easier expansions for exp is going to be easier. the solution should not be to nerf something that performs as intended in current content aside from a few high end groups across the game being able to pull tons. If the only people able to do that in current content have to be in raid gear then it's a scaling issue with raid gear not riposte heals.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  12. Soulrheever Journeyman

    Another issue that has been repeated far too often is the balance between damage intake and damage output that we see in EoK. The mobs are much better at soaking up abuse than they are at dishing it out, which makes the group game boring: It's slow paced and far too easy to tank. However, that's another balance issue entirely. This post is about the proposed SK nerf, and what I feel to be a preferable alternative.

    There are already systems in place to reduce the effectiveness of swarming: Mortal Residue and Hit Counters. However, these are not tuned properly and so have very little actual impact on gameplay. Some simple adjustments to the values already present on these changes (reduced hit count, increased timer/proc rate on MR, etc.) would make good use of an existing mechanic to curtail the sort of abuses that it was originally intended to prevent while not having any major impact on the majority of players in the majority of situations.
  13. Warpeace Augur

    This, it basically punishes group players.
  14. Minato Augur

    Oh sks and chanters dps too high? lets nerf utility that HAS to fix it.... ah well sorry sks and chanters

    P.S if these dot changes go live as is you might as well buff bards to where 2nd tier dps classes are... f*** it why not
  15. GoldenFrog Augur

    Curious here, Bamkan, but I'm assuming you haven't done parses on Test compared with Live.

    Even as a warrior you can do a couple parses, little math, and see what the impact will be.

    Not only is it "really gonna be effected" with 5-10 mobs. It'll be an issue with 2-3 mobs.
  16. Aghinem Augur

    Such a thoughtless change; aimed at a small population of SKs that do some swarm kills, meanwhile the rest of us will suffer and having to change the way we play our class - if we even consider playing at all for that matter.
    Gyurika Godofwar and Azbaelus like this.
  17. Aghinem Augur

    Taking this a step further because I am rather livid by this type of change; you would think that their primary focus would be on the more pertinent issue of server stability rather than make these class changes. I say, no more implementations of any type until the servers are made reasonably stable.
    Gyurika Godofwar and Azbaelus like this.
  18. GoldenFrog Augur

    First, the two are not exclusive. A class balance change doesn't mean the network issues aren't being looked at also.

    Second, the perception of imbalance or unfairness or bias in a game is far more damaging than whether it is up and available 100% of the time.

    If you could only play Monopoly on Mondays, you'd still play.
    If Monopoly was skewed so Jimmy wins more often, you wouldn't

    As long as people cry about others having more gruel than them, DBG will respond.
  19. fransisco Augur

    swarming has been a repeated issue with SKs for many years.
    Another little fix will only kick the can down the road.
    Swarming for xp needs to be stopped for all classes.
    Changing counter numbers by a few % isn't gonna fix that.
    Swarming needs to stop.
  20. AnzoRagespirit Augur

    The only people I see crying about this change are group people, I'm not bashing casuals what I am gonna say is imagine being in a raid setting....Leech abilities might help you live longer (yes SK are very good at keeping them selves alive not just with MC and 2.0) anyway I. A raid setting MC and 2.0 aren't healing for as much damage being smashed down upon you, it helps yes, but when your being quadded for 30-60k the heal amount t doesn't carry weight.

    The group game is much easier and can be swarmed hell I can tank up to 4 mobs on my bst in EoK I'm raid geared yes, but should a BST be allowed to do that??? No they shouldn't but in a raid I get one rounded. So the only loss here is the group game. Darn you MIGHT die to 4 mobs. Don't trust your healer Merc to keep you alive? Hire a real healer that is more than likely LFG.

    Just adapt to the changes just cause your not getting 10 AA every 14 secs anymore doesn't mean it's the end of the world.