Progression PvP server? Will it happen?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Farzo, May 25, 2016.

  1. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    There are plenty of reasons why PvP in EQ just doesn't work, those have been covered pretty well in this thread already. There are also reasons why the current level of CS in EQ doesn't work for PvP, and those have also been covered already. But what hasn't been covered are the reasons that open world PvP is doomed to fail in MMO games.

    There have been plenty of different implementations of PvP in MMOs. Arena's, Duel's, Open World, X vs X Tournaments, Realm vs Realm, and Battlegrounds (small and large). There are probably more I don't even know about, but that's the basic list. Some of these are very successful concepts and some are not. Open world PvP sounds exciting on its face, but the experience is generally the most lopsided of the available options. Gankers will gank, and griefers will grief. People who are only having fun when ruining somebody else's day gravitate to this style of PvP because it gives them what they want, potentially unbalanced fights.

    On the flip side you have Duels, Tournaments, and small Battlegrounds (like Arathi Basin in WoW). These are inherently balanced in player count, designed for players to feel like they had an even shot even if wildly outmatched by their opponents. When the fight is over, win or lose, you have a pretty good idea of what made the difference. But not everybody wants small scale PvP, the mistake is thinking open world PvP is the solution. Why would you give up basic balance just to increase the scale? You don't have to, Alterac Valley in WoW is the perfect example. A large scale PvP battleground, with mostly balanced player counts, and at a scale and spread out enough where that matters less anyway.

    Other concepts went a different direction. Dark Age of Camelot had Realm vs Realm. You could PvE safely in your own realm, or unsafely the open PvP area connecting the realms. This at least gave you a choice to advance while in twitchy defense mode, without forcing that to be the only option. That separation is important for people who might like PvP but can't commit to the 100% twitchy defense life.

    This isn't our original EQ gaming community, even if many of the players are the same people as back then, their lives have likely changed. We have families, kids, distractions, responsibilities. It's not that PvP should cater to that, but that the pool of willing PvP enthusiasts will be smaller if they have to choose between dying while AFK and upsetting their wife. PvP needs to be designed to draw in players, and open world PvP is designed to do the opposite.

    I played a little PvP in EQ on SZ, most of my PvP was in WoW BG's and on an open world PvP server. Did some in DAoC also, but not much. Most recently I've dabbled with PvP in The Division which has both the equivalents of some BG's and an open world PvP area. They have the same problem there in what is called the Dark Zone. It's mostly wolves, very few sheep. People learn fast that if they aren't killed by somebody cheating, they will be killed by people looking for unbalanced fights. As the sheep leave, the wolves get bored and leave also. Open world PvP is a crap sandwich in a shiny package to draw people in, but then they leave once they get a taste. It's the same on WoW open world PvP servers, gankers just looking for easy targets.

    If you want PvP in EQ, it at least needs a fresh take. The old model doesn't work anymore. It's probably not worth DBG investing time into trying to do this differently, even if that's the only feasible future for PvP. The other issues with CS and class balance would still apply in a PvP scenario where the situation was more balanced in player counts or where participation was optional. Given that, the concept probably isn't viable even with a fresher take.
  2. NoWay Augur

    No classes unbalanced. Nuff said.
  3. Wanderling New Member

    Class balance was never sought after by EQ least not to my several years of experience's knowledge. In fact, it added to a lot of the draw of it. I speak for myself when I say that I want a TLPPvP server WITHOUT trying to "balance classes for pvp".

    Thanks for the long post explaining your viewpoint. Still, stating your opinion as fact is a bit...well you insert whatever word you wish. I had a lot of fun pvping in EQ and so did my friends. Was it fair? Nope. Does that add untold elements to the game that are stripped away on a bluebie server? Yup.

    And don't add meaning that isn't there. When I say it wasn't fair, I meant that we were the ones who usually did the dying. Thinking back to my nostalgia days, the memories that are the strongest are the PVP encounters - not the killing of NPCs.

    It's unfortunate that it appears this type of TLP won't happen for whatever reason. Such is life.

    But yeah. AFK means A Free Kill, ya filthy carebear. ;)
  4. Machentoo Augur

    That is not exactly accurate. No one enjoyed the days of wizards being able to one shot manaburn kill an opponent, even if it was just once an hour. (Well, no one but the wizards.) Or, the days of enchanters being able to charm you and suicide you against the guards. There was a fair amount of pvp specific balancing that was done early on, resist changes to balance casters verses melees, snare changes, melee dps scaling once the balance tipped the other way... Players didn't necessarily want perfect class balance, but there was a fair amount of demand for some of the most extreme imbalances to be fixed. And even when players weren't outright asking for these things, quite a few of the dev staff played on the pvp servers and saw the needs firsthand.
  5. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    I don't think people worried about class balance so much back in the beginning, everybody was just happy to be playing this new kind of game. By the time SZ rolled around it came up more because of the team aspect being imbalanced in class options. A new PvP server that was starting now would certainly be subject to people questioning the balance of classes, along with a number of other topics related to how PvP mechanics are handled. But that wasn't really what my post was about, as I said, the class balance issue was already well covered in this thread.

    My post was about the history of PvP in MMOs and how things developed, and where we are now. And it is accurate. If PvP in EQ worked well in its current form then the remaining Zek wouldn't be a ghost town. Heck, it wouldn't be "the" remaining Zek, there would still be multiple Zeks and they wouldn't be dead. This isn't opinion, this is fact. EQ is still here and surviving, but the PvP servers aren't keeping up with it. Every few months we get the same new post in the Veteran forum about people cheating on Zek, otherwise it's silence.

    The things I remember most from the nostalgia days are the things I did with friends, whether in PvE or PvP. So while you may have fond memories of dying in unfair PvP situations with your friends, I think you'll find that in the same situation solo you'd have a different take on those memories. Open world PvP has to overcome a lot of challenges to be implemented properly as an asset to the game.

    I forgot to mention I played a lot of PvP in EVE Online, which is a different type of game but is still an MMO. It is also the MMO which has arguably the best open world PvP implementation out there. The game is designed around open world PvP. It has safe zones that aren't entirely safe, active cheat prevention, good CS, and active re-balancing of anything they see as a problem. The lawless areas are expansive, providing far more space than the active players could occupy all at once. You can fight over and claim territory. Some territory has randomly changing connections to other territory.

    Anyway, the point is that PvP is hard to implement sufficiently when it is not the primary or secondary goal of the game. In EQ, at least at the moment, I'd say it's not even on any list of priorities. That means it would have to present a substantial opportunity for income to even be considered for moving up to a real priority. You may say that it's fine the way it is in game now, but i don't think there are enough people who feel exactly the same about that to make a new PvP Progression server viable. Some changes would have to be made, some level of CS would need to be active, at least as much as Agnarr had, probably more. Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
  6. Nuther Augur

    I would not play it. I would play another game.
  7. oldkracow 9999 Is the Krono Account Limit

    Open pvp + no class balance, no active enforcement of 3rd party programs = no thank you

    Just what I want is to play against box groups with the ability to track without a tracking class :rolleyes:
  8. Titanuk88 Elder

    so many lols on this thread

    where do i start?
  9. Titanuk88 Elder

    love all these people posting about " no one would play on it "

    - Why are you posting here?
    Its because you know the blue server you play on would lose population due to a pvp server (sadly)
    sorry but its true
  10. Titanuk88 Elder

    i could get 300 players on it myself

    red99 had 900 people day 1( not really any promoting ). Lots quit from not wanting to deal with GMs or classic XP that they said they would never change ( ended up changing it 6months later and added yellow text for pvp kills )

    p99 wont release anymore progression .. how long do you expect people to do kunark / velious for? the red server has been out for 5+ years and everyone hates the ego maniacs that call themselves gms on that server.
    Thanks for the support
  11. Titanuk88 Elder

    Kyde likes this.
  12. Boosi Lorekeeper

    Would love to PvP Agnarr, eta?

    The naysayers can't use p99 as a reference, that's a corrupt for money server, that's why the pop is garbage.
  13. Titanuk88 Elder

    great idea

    1. There hasn't been any pvp servers in a very long time (healthy or not) and zek isnt real EQ pvp anymore, so you have no idea what you are talking about

    2. yes ( i can do it to )

    3. once again you have no idea what you are talking about .. EQ2 isnt EQ .. sorry

    4. you mean one guild gets called the strongest on the server? and kills people?
    sounds like a pvp server .. Also greifing lowbies is something a blue server player would do to feel better about themselves.. 90% of the fun is killing ur #1 enemy guild or fighting for open world raid bosses ( no games do that anymore)
    Kyde likes this.
  14. Titanuk88 Elder

    very true,

    dont forget about the gms that even said on live streams they dont care about red99

    the only thing you can say about EQ pvp is it is full of the most toxic people you will come accross . i do feel bad for the GMs that mean well but really if they open a pvp server.. get rid of gms and just ban hackers . make it FFA like sullon zek or something with no rules so they dont have to worry about it as much
  15. Kyde New Member

    Ive been a solid eq raider 80% across 4 guilds over about 7 years, and i can say that the BEST memories of my eq life were when the three zeks merged. the PVP was INSANE.
    was i max level? no
    was i in the best gear? no
    i was grinding with just normal people at LOW levels.
    no fancy 54 person raid.
    theres at least 1100 players ACTIVE on pvp alone that log in every month if not more.

    on top the the community on zek all box at least two toons to raid there would be a flood of active players and returning. they own the hardware, just check the boxes and set it up.
    what can you lose?
    paying the team to code it.
    oh wait its been done.

    project M was <3
  16. Kyde New Member

    any progession server will grab subs. its just nostalgia in play.
  17. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    Maybe start with getting those 300 players to post on this thread to show their support. If DBG thinks it will do well and make money then they might try it. But there hasn't been much indication that that is true so far.
  18. Accipiter Old Timer

    Never, ever, ever, ever gonna happen. Why doesn't the (tiny) PVP crowd get that?
  19. Titanuk88 Elder

    Over 300 people have posted about pvp progression servers over the past year. They just get spammed by bluebies saying eq pvp is trash or w/e they want to say.

    why do you care to post about this tiny pvp crowd? if it was so inferior, you shouldn't have to say anything
    very true and they would get lots of subs from the red community + 90% of the people playing for free on zek would sub for a pvp progression server
  20. Titanuk88 Elder

    great post
    supported with facts