Procs Per Minute (ppm) 101... someone take me to school

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Daedly, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. Daedly Augur

    Can anyone tell me how these work?
    Do they have some kind of cool down timer after a proc?
    If they do have a timer, are any of the timers linked between different proc's?
    Is there a way to tell if a proc has a ppm limitation without parsing?
    Any idea why a proc that has a restriction on the number ppm wouldn't just be given a 100% proc rate?
  2. Gnomereaper Augur

    There's technically no "proc cool downs" on weapons. However, the way that procs are assembled is that only on proc can fire at a time. So if you have a large weapon proc (doesn't affect berserker really) is that if you use say a low damage proc aug the dps is lowered because the lesser dps proc is proccing in place of the higher dps proc thus "choking the damage" on the overall parse.

    This information is current as of 2007.

    So in that time clerics with spam or "boom sticks" like 1k dd+ procs back in then that were high damage, the general consensus was not to add procs to the stack and instead go for +proc chance to raise the chance of a proc.
  3. Jhenna_BB Augur

    2007 is very out of date so your information is incorrect. During TDS, procs were changed to be independent of each other. You absolutely can proc more than one proc in a melee round. Just ask any class with a force proc ability.
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  4. Fanra Augur

  5. Dropfast Augur

    Yea, they changed it so all procs are independent of each other now, even . The way I understand it is all procs have a "PPM" number, which just changes how often it will go off on "average". As far as I know that is not a hard cap number, meaning you can only proc this proc X times per minute. It's just a modifier to determine an average proc rate chance. Dex is suppose to add to that Mod as well. Some buffs like Shaman 3rd spire and Monk 1st spire can also add to that mod, making them go off a little more often. A few classes have force proc discs that will make them go off every swing but they are short lived and only 2 classes has that?

    Their no cooldown between procs, I know that. A long time ago you could only have one offensive and one defensive proc go off at once. Meaning you had to pick and choose your procs, having to many offensive ones going would "choke" the others out. Now, you can stack as many procs as you like and they all have change of going off every swing. But the PPM mod keeps them in check for the most part, so they are not just going off non stop. Melee would be aggro / DPS kings if all our procs went off every swing ><
  6. Beeferx Journeyman

    100 dex = 1 ppm
    based weapon speed that is converted to % chance per hit, thus giving you more when you are slowed and riposte. So much has changed with procing on only your target and rampage procing.
    Super rough estimate here but seems to work well with parsing against the back of stuff.

    Spell casters its something like 10% per 10 sec cast before haste is figured in, and it's real muddy. 2x proc rate for 2 hander. I have not done any parsing here.

    You are going to have to provide more information. You are asking about melee procs right? Offensive procs or defensive. Weapon procs, buffs, ability, or disc procs? Decap, assassination, headshot, recourse, sk epic are a few things that are limited in some way. you are most likely going to have to parse, its going to teach you stuff anyway and make you a better player in the long run. If it is offensive set up a dummy, autofire, and go to bed.
  7. Daedly Augur

    Alright, no timer. I was wondering how that was being done. Given the way that Banestrike as a "proc" was given a timer, I began to wonder if that's how they controlled the ppm.
  8. Beeferx Journeyman

    oh, yeah that. Its a 100% proc based on your aa level. go find a rat in PoD and give it a kick, banestrike goes off after a few moments (fractions of a sec to 2 sec or so I really wish it was instant.) You aren't going to proc banestrike again until your banestrike timer is up again but it will be nearly instant as soon as the timer is up.

    No idea if it procs on a miss, I will have to test this.
  9. Sancus Augur

    Part of the issue is there are multiple kinds of "procs" with different formulas. Here's what I know (a lot of the melee info is from Kizant and I running parses relatively recently):

    Caster Procs:
    The formula for caster procs is (Cast_Time - 1) * 0.167, with a minimum proc rate of 25%. I think there's also a different formula for spells with a Cast Time more than 7s, but there are very few spells that use those. There are also some items that might have a value that modifies the proc rate, but AFAIK no relevant caster weapon has such a modifier.

    Melee Weapon Procs:
    The formula for melee weapon procs is approximately Base * (Combat_Effects + Item_Proc_Mod + SPA200% + 1) = PPM. We generally found the Base to be about 2 PPM. There may be (an)other small factor(s). This assumes modern Dex levels; I didn't test extensively, but somewhere around 250-300 Dex it stops adding anything.

    Casters can't duel wield, so I don't have parses with an off hand weapon. I have extensive testing with pets, but they're without max Combat Effects and the values are a little weird.

    Melee Proc Buffs (SPA 85):
    The formula for these seems to be Base * (1+ Proc_Rate_Mod) = PPM. We generally found the "Base" value to be about 3.05 PPM. I don't really know where that comes from, but I have pretty extensive tests across a large number of procs and it consistently ranged from 3 to 3.1 PPM as a "Base" value. These procs are not affected by Combat Effects nor SPA 200.

    There are other kinds of procs that casters don't have access to and as such I don't know the formulas for. There's also SPA 250, which casters don't have access to, so I can't test it.

    These formulas apply for both pets and players, although pets do not come pre-summoned with max Combat Effects.
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  10. Gnomereaper Augur

    Yep, which is why I dated myself. Thanks for correcting me.
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  11. Tucoh Augur

    Necroing this thread for a question: what can i do to increase my melee proc buff proc rate?

    Specifically for this buff:

    Right now my three berserker group is frequently juuuust short of the ten procs needed to fulminate the alliance on mobs. What can i do to increase the proc rate?

    Would a faster weapon help? Higher HHE or haste? More dex?
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  12. Lisard Augur

    Dex(maybe BST+furiousrampage rotation lol?) would be the only thing to contribute to higher RNG of procing since the covenant is a buff based off your auto attack swings.

    zerker covenant is the worst covenant as you need 4 zerkers to proc it reliably lol.
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  13. Lisard Augur

  14. 666DPSweDeliver Elder

    Besides adding more zerkers, theres pretty much nothing you can do to assure zerker fulminations except pray to the RNG gods and perhaps sacrifice a ranger every raid event. Over the course of a 4 hour raid night with just 2 zerkers, we are happy if we get 1 or 2 fulminations period. Enjoy the DD proc it buffs and look at the fulmination as a bonus.
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  15. Derka Augur

    Based off the formulas here and input from players I would say you are correct to assume that a faster weapon + more HHE running would increase your chances of fulminating it. Completely RNG dependent and more hits just ups your odds
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  16. Tucoh Augur

    Yeah I didn't realize how bad the zerker covenant was until I got my mage group up. Admittedly there are four of them, but they typically fulminate in about 8 seconds.
  17. Svann2 Augur

    I think procs are normalized for weapon speed so if you are expected to get 4 procs per minute it doesnt help to use a faster weapon - except for classes that have an aa that makes you proc every swing. But of course that only lasts while the aa is up. Haste helps, anddex helps.
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  18. Derka Augur

    It's a melee proc buff that fires off of melee strikes though it should be separate from combat effects or worn proc modifiers like shaman spire because it isn't on the weapon itself. If its limited to 12 PPM for example and you only have 18 seconds to get those in, there is a chance all 12 of those procs could be front loaded into the 18 seconds or spread out over 60. I used to notice this with headshot a lot even though it is entirely different. To go another route if it can fire off of "strikes" then maximizing those by getting more triple attacks, flurry, rampages or dissidents would further increase your odds. This is all theory in my head of course so confirmation or disproving is welcome lol.
  19. Tolzol Augur

    Two zerkers under full burn can proc covenant. Three should proc it reliably any other time np. Up your heroic dex, HHE helps as well. Save a rampage for when you hit it can help also. Aside from that weapon speed doesnt really help due to what Svann said above.
  20. Sancus Augur

    Most of the things mentioned have no effect on SPA 85 procs. Their proc rate isn't affected by dexterity (in excess of 255-ish?), heroic dexterity, haste, hundred hands effects, weapon delay, combat effects, etc. They're normalized for swing rate, and follow the formula in my earlier post of Base * (100% + Proc_Rate_Mod%) = PPM.

    To show this, I ran a number of tests on a /betabuff Berserker using a 2hander with Arcane Ballad, which also uses SPA 85 and has a 400% rate mod. Using the Base value of 3.05, this should average 15.25 procs per minute. Most of the tests were 20 minutes long so there is some degree of variability, but you can see all of them, except for the last one, are right around that value:


    The only thing I tested that did increase proc rate is (Focused) Furious Rampage, which is likely why it's easier to fulminate Mangler's Covenant during a burn. It saw a 56% increase in procs per minute; I think it'd take a longer parse to determine if that should really be a 50% increase or something slightly higher. Rampage does also have a chance to proc Arcane Ballad so that's a thing. It's possible there are other abilities that have a chance to proc it; this was about the extent of my testing.

    Edit: It's also worth noting that SPA 250 likely increases SPA 85 proc rate, but most classes, including Berserkers, do not have access to those effects. SPA 200 does not affect SPA 85 proc rate.
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