Preview of Upcoming Changes to Combat Escape AA Abilities

Discussion in 'News and Announcements' started by Dzarn, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    Aye to that

    Sorry, I disagree that "reuse time" is a resource cost other then as it affects your customer's enjoyment of the game. It's more aptly "frustration time" for abilities that are "quality of life" in nature and something to be very careful with.

    I don't see why Beastlord is in this "pulling group" other then as "monk hybrids"; getting feign death at level 85 is a weak rationale. I think they belong with Magicians and Shaman. I think Enchanters belong in this group more so.
    I don't see why Berserkers are in this group as they're not supposed to be fleeing any battles, like warriors and paladin. I think druids and wizards belong in this group because they are the original escapists. Shaman don't belong here either i.e. since when can they escape better then a druid?

    Upgrade Enchanter, Druid, and Wizard. Downgrade Beastlord, Shaman, and Berserker.
  2. Tanacious Lorekeeper

    One moment, I have rez sickness from my necro calling me back from the beyond to see the absolute ludicrous crap DBG is suggesting.

    Are you guys sure you aren't SOE? Cause this looks and smells like something SOE would do, couple with the recent patch that turned all melee classes, especially Bards, into impotent useless meat shields, and made us all want to go play a mage. Now you want to beat the mages and their pets, among many other classes into submission if we make a mistake.... I just don't get it.

    I have played this game from year one. No, Rogues weren't the first to get Escape aggro, they were the first class outside of the innate classes to get it. But I am sure that was a semantic error.

    I think you need to stop messing with the game. This proposed change is enough to make people walk away again, and you don't have that many people that want to stay anymore. You already have my year re-up because I gave it that just to see if the game has improved any. It most definitely has not. And I am not real impressed thus far, except with the amount of HP I can have now.

    In less than 60 days I have endured 2 very concerning changes that make me wonder if anyone really wants to save this game, or if it's just kind of a dying relic of the what pre-millennial games were like. This game is at a shadow of it's former glory, most of for the reasons of doing exactly what you have done, and what you are proposing to do once again.


    I can think of a dozen things off the top of my head that need to be addressed more than how the different classes fade and their cost and reuse time.
    1. Address the vendor lag in the Plane of Knowledge, FFS it's 2019, time to use SSD's.
    2. Address the Exp/AA Exp gain for older quests. Otherwise you have 300 zones that have no point in this game, until you get to the level where you can do the revamped versions.
    3. Address the fact that doing a raid is mostly pointless unless you have 12 overpowered boxed characters that don't need the gear anyway. You need to accept that the server population is crap, and create alternate means of completing quests instead of relying on the whims of whomever may be on to get whatever quest update you need done. This means being able to enter solo into a raid zone. Just because I have a computer that can load up 24 instances of EQ doesn't mean I actually want to. I have better things to do.... like look at tradeskill recipes.
    4. Fix most of the old world tradeskill quest mobs. I don't mind camping a mob for 30 mins to an hour. But for 3 days with no spawn is . Sure, it's a rare spawn chance, great. But the mob isn't Waldo, and this isn't a great big book of convoluted eye spam. IE> Rogue Master Sketch and Burning rapier sub quest.
    5. WTF is the point of having 500+ tradeskill trivial combines when our limit goes to 350 w/ 150+ AA into it? So there are like what 2 or 3 people per server that live in mom's basement still and have the time to sink into farming and making this stuff over and over again? We aren't kids any more, and kids don't want to play this game because they look at us like "are you mental? Why would you waste time with that? That's boring." Yes. Yes it is very boring.
    6. There is no way to solo grind in EQ efficiently. Now, some people may argue this point through various methods they themselves have developed for their classes. I am talking OVERALL. Yes, us players with characters almost legally old enough to go into a bar, we have the system figured out through all of SOE's/DBG's nerf whompings. But for a new player that sees the amount of time it takes to get from lvl 85 to 86, and then says: "wait, it gets more drawn out and longer from here?" They then take their money elsewhere and spend it on some mobile app they can dink on from time to time and actually beat a few levels of or whatever because it is MUCH more satisfying to them.
    7. All content from 1-95 will be utterly pointless after your new expansion, when level 115 is the new cap. You need to have a way to be able to bypass this stuff easily, and get the comparable raid gear equivalent rewards for level 90 with an easy to complete quest, much like the Journeyman V mercs. Other high end players are going to get the trade-able gear first, then sell the extras to other players while they are farming Krono. This evens the odds, and forces them to focus only on trying to compete with each other to farm Krono, and not to farm gear to sell so they can farm Krono from both ends. If it came down to playing a quarter M plat or doing a fairly quick and easy quest (or easy but long and drawn out quest for the entire set) I would take the quest any day.
    8. STOP raising the damned level cap. Unless you are going to speed up experience for 95-110, it already takes WAAAAY too long to do even just 90-91. Your target audience that has the disposable income you are after to play the game is mostly comprised of adults 30-45. But we now all have jobs, businesses, kids, dogs, medical conditions, spouses, and small countries to run that all can take away from the grindy EQ time that we need to play this and feel like it's not a complete waste of time. (I didn't say cats, because your cat does not need you more than you need your cat, and therefore will not take away from EQ time.)
    9. Alla's and other fan made sites have made and/or are still making MUCH MORE MONEY than you are off of ad revenue from the repeated visits to their sites. Isn't it about time that you put in easily explainable explanations of where to go, what does what, all in a format that you can look up in a list, like one big help index? Sure, I know the answers are in the game on various vendors with various clues/books/scrolls/lore and so on and so forth. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT ANYONE STILL LIKES TO DO THAT OBSCURE BS IF THOSE FAN SITES GET MILLIONS OF HITS PER MONTH? Use your noodle for something besides how to kiss up to your boss. We already have enough time to worry about sinking into a level grind. We don't have time to go frolicking around like a drunk gnome trying to find out information about a quest. We just consult the internet, it's much faster.
    10. We need a new race. My vote is for Gargoyle. That way you can use the Drakin model and be lazy about it, but we get a new race that has new abilities and is genuinely new content.
    11. Learn from SOE's mistakes. I can promise you that although you say you value the community's feedback, if enough people are claiming that is BS, there is probably a good reason for it. I reserve judgement for now, but given the track records I can find in these here forums, it does indeed seem that the overall tone is that DBG=SOE=Mind numbing nerf ninjas.
    12. I kinda ran out of things, so not quite a dozen, but if you are all bored, could you make a set of clown gear augments and put them all automatically onto a character named Riverwake on Cazic-Thule along with a note that says: "Tanacious says you deserve this, just keep in mind who he knows." It's not really game related other than I think having clown suit augments would be really freaking awesome for a gag. It would still be a much better waste of time than what you are proposing of doing with the change I now refer to as: "Obviously-not-well-thought-out-escape-nerf-rearrange-whack-a-doodle-gotta-show-the-boss-we-are-doing-something-besides-playing-WoW"
    13. I lied, I did think of something else. How about those flying mounts? I mean, really, it's been what, A DECADE since EQ2 got them? Cmon. I want a freaking dragon, or gargoyle, or hell I'd even take a My Little Pony Al-Acorn to fly on at this point. It's taken WAAAAY too long, and it's about time I can fly over some trivial zone without just levi and looking up.

    So there you have it. A dozen things better suited to change, work on, hell even just to think about rather than do the utterly DESTRUCTIVE change you are proposing. Seriously, you guys should hire me. No really, I'd exchange ideas and player based balancing tweaks for payment. The bonus is I would actually listen to the community, as well as experience the pros and cons right along with them. I have a dozen years or more of playing this game (Have all vet rewards) and have an extreme handle on the mechanics. (and/or how to get around them) Plus to boot, I own a tech corporation in RL so even though my fee would be outrageous for a consultant, you would be able to get real time hardware results instantly without having to rely so much on that flea ridden mouse infested test server where nothing quite works right anyway.

    I am saying, just to be 100% clear: If you follow through with ANY of it the way it was originally written, you are going to have a riot on your hands. Bards are still sobbing quietly in the corner killing their 6 mobs at a time, feeling completely useless and wondering WTF this double riposte thing is and why you would give them something that doesn't work on a miss.....

    If you want to change something, do this:
    Bard: Just undo the changes from the last patch, leave their Fade as is. They are pullers, and we love them, even though they are rarely played. I don't play a bard, but a higher level bard took me from 80 to 90 in a matter of two days doing efficient pulls on higher level mobs and being able to manage aggro. He did die a few times, but nothing abnormal. I have been on level 90 soloing/duoing with a mage buddy of mine for 3 weeks now trying to get to 91. At the time of this post I am 75% in. See what's wrong with this picture? It's not that Bards need to be nerfed, there just need to be more of them.

    Caster's/Hybrid Casters with Pets: Remove their Fade, make succor/evac an instant gate AA that drops all aggro, 10 min reuse, 2% mana cost. Give pet summon a 1% mana cost, unlimited use, 10s recast. Yes, there is a way to exploit that, but you know what? It's a much less dangerous way to pull for casters with weaker pets instead of using your tank merc to pull. Beyond that, if someone figures out how to get something to get them ahead a little, jesus, let them do it, it's not like they are going to 1 shot a raid mob and loot it with the ability.

    Casters without Pets: Give them all a 1 minute immunity instant cast AA called "Force of Will" that does NOT make them stand/dismount when hit. This gives them time to mem Gate/Succor/Warp/Run or whatever their choice of removing themselves is, and time to think about it.

    Tank classes: K so not reallllly sure why a class designed to charge into the front line needs a Fade/Escape AA. Pulling isn't their job, and if they get more than the one or five mobs they were intending, it does suck, but that's why a tank doesn't pull. HOWEVER.... In the spirit of being fair, perhaps give them an instant cast AA called "Accept Thy Fate" that is not only an Area Taunt/Overtaunt that is unresistable to the aggroed mobs, up to 16 targets, but gives 2 minutes self rooted immunity. The warrior cannot move, do any damage, or attack either, but may only cast a gate type spell or ability.
    Any subsequent attack on any of the mobs will break the taunt "spell", and transfer all the hate to the new attacker. So kind of like the warrior will accept death or have enough time to get out if they choose to run, but if the mobs are attacked after that ability is active and puts the "debuff" on them, that hate is instantly transferred to the new attacker, but forgets all about the warrior. This is mostly to prevent immunity exploitation in raids, and yes, 2 minutes is a long time, but enough for the group to get their stuff together and regroup or evac/run. The reuse time on this ability is 30 minutes.

    The potential drawback is it can be used as a form of crowd control pulling in otherwise badly designed social aggro areas where not even enchanters can separate mobs, but that's not entirely a bad thing for a once per 30 minute thing. Some areas are just designed poorly, and this takes care of that.

    Rogues: Look, I will be totally honest, I am biased here, and for the longest time, every other class had some unique thing they could do that was useful in every situation, and it was 10 years before backstab was really more useful than say, ice comet. So when people whined about rogues being able to escape/cheat death, we laughed. Then we dragged their corpses after we zoned back in. Then corpse summoning became a thing. Now we have no more job. WTF SOE? THE ONE FREAKING THING WE HAD WHEN A NECRO WASN'T AROUND....
    But we got over it.
    Then we got our backstab AND poisons upgraded, and now we do about the same damage as a wizard, but draw much more aggro. Then our aggro was fixed. Then mercs were introduced, and we couldn't use them really because a HoT spell would draw aggro and we couldn't get it back, merc dies, we use escape, or just die.
    Then it was fixed with Assassinate. Then assassinate was nerfed, and everyone chucked the rog's back to the sideline.
    Then I stopped playing because I really couldn't stand all that back and forth BS, I had absolutely no idea how to effectively play a rogue anymore because it got changed so often I couldn't keep track. Added to that I am now going into my last years of college and starting a family, and there was lots more important than trying to keep up with bipolar game "balances".

    So for rogues: Keep the normal escape ability, make the reuse 1 minute. Reinforce that Shroud of Stealth is active on use, ALWAYS, and against any mob level. After all sometimes rogues are just curious about whats around the corner. Reduce the reuse timer on SmokeShroud.

    Make an instant cast AA group target ability called "Years of Abuse"

    It uses 1% AA, and instantly puts your entire group into Shroud of Stealth and mind wipes any aggroed mob. There is a catch though. This ability will consume 10% of your carried Platinum as an offering to your Deity to include the "heathens" in your group, and the amount sacrificed must be a minimum of 100pp or the effect will only take on yourself. The AA cost will still apply. Reuse time of 5 minutes. If you are agnostic, you drop that amount as you pull your companions into the shadows hastily.

    This way, the rogue must decide whether to carry enough money on him/her for their entire group, or just enough to pay for themselves. Whether to save them and move past the years of abuse and neglect by most other heroes and the rest of Norrath, or to watch them die a slow painful death from the shadows as a fitting reward while you count your riches...

    So again, there you have it. Your proposed changes that actually work with the current mechanics of game play and dont upset the balance of anything too much.

    I have spent entirely too much time typing this, so I hope to Bristlebane that someone with a halfway functioning brain reads it and puts it to good use. Whether that be to make the changes or put it on forums to go viral, or whatever.

    Enjoy, and good night!
    PCSS likes this.
  3. laller Journeyman

    I don't see why Berserkers are in this group as they're not supposed to be fleeing any battles, like warriors and paladin. I think druids and wizards belong in this group because they are the original escapists. Shaman don't belong here either i.e. since when can they escape better then a druid?

    cant druis and wizards evac ?

    and who has 20% end mana when they need to use the skill anyways but i gues the 10 15min reuse is so that you can sit down and med and get the mana end back to use the ability
  4. Anastasis Elder

    The grouping of Rangers with Berserkers, Enchanters, and Shaman are a very odd choice. Rangers do pulls, and should group with the other pulling classes. Please reconsider your choice of grouping.
    Jordis and Yinla like this.
  5. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    I understand that from a design standpoint, you think certain classes should not have easy access to aggro fading abilities. You think, "It should come with a cost, and they should not be able to do it as often." I find it interesting that by comparison, you think classes that should have easy access to aggro fading should have a 10x difference (or more) in cost and button availability. That difference isn't just huge, it's colossal.

    Dissident Shield is the most endurance expensive ability that I have, which makes sense as the progressive and class-defining combat ability for Warriors. It costs ~6150 endurance, that's 2.5% of my endurance pool. The change you're proposing to my Warrior Fade will cause that ability to cost 49.8K endurance. The cost is enormous; the cost is just bonkers by comparison to any other endurance-using tool available to me. You're looking at a resource cost at the level of Manaburn just to be able to fade aggro, to use a utility skill.

    The long reuse timer I kinda get from a group play perspective, for the classes that have to wait that long. The problem is trying to use the New Fade in the raid game. It's gonna become a once-per-event ability.

    Why do we fade? To lose aggro, obviously. But when? In the group game, it's because you've got aggro on too many mobs (a train), or the group is wiping/wiped and you're trying not to die to help with recovery time (rez the group). Those are things that shouldn't happen more than once in every 10 or 15 minutes unless you're playing very poorly. In a raid, it can be because of overaggro on a mob/boss, needing to drop down on the Rampage list, because loose adds or a freshly-spawned wave is headed at you, or because you need to be out of combat to recover resources. That raid stuff comes up more often than once every 10 or 15 minutes, and the resource recovery is especially a problem.

    Current raid script and the mob AI you're using frequently adds players to the aggro list the instant they reenter the zone after being resurrected. This prevents the use of Out of Combat resource recovery methods. For some events, where the raid mobs are low enough level, you could still fade off the aggro to use Breather or Hiatus for a melee example. With the new 20% resource cost, that is no longer an option. If a use-case happens more often than once every 10 or 15 minutes, the result is a death that used to be avoidable and an inability to recover resources.

    Basically, the cost of New Fade is absurdly high compared to the cost of literally (not figuratively) any other tool available to me that costs endurance. It can no longer be used after a death and can not be used as frequently to prevent a death. It complicates/prevents resource recovery after a death. If you go forward with this fade change, you're going to need to remove the Out of Combat restriction from resource recovery tools like Hiatus (something you should have done anyway because of the script/AI you've been using to enforce combat status on the freshly rezzed).
    Skuz, PCSS, Chatoyan and 2 others like this.
  6. Morthakia Augur

    Compromise.... make the fade UP TO 20% rather than a straight 20%, depending on how much mana/end they have left. That way if someone is at less than 20% it will simply drain all their mana/endurance but still function.

    I foresee many situations where someone receives a rez but the group is wiping, so they need to fade or they will die again, but they have no mana/end to do so.
    Yinla and Skuz like this.
  7. Dragari Journeyman

    Terrible change, I can live with the longer timers, but the 20% mana cost is ridiculous, what use is a last gasp fade if its going to fail if you have less than 20% mana? As a ranger I already struggle with mana use, so this makes the skill just totally worthless. I would much rather effort was concentrated on making a decent next expansion after the mess of TBL and not changing old gameplay mechanics.
    PCSS and Jordis like this.
  8. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    The times I actually use the Berserker fade is almost always when using Mercs & one of them has pathed badly or it has chased a mob that pathed badly (EQ Pathing is a freaking nightmare in many places) and it consequently grabbed aggro on a whole shedload of mobs I had not done anything to, or just when a mob pathed really badly (this is really a very common scenario in some spots more than others) so I am in effect using an ability to survive bad implementation of game systems & being punished for needing to do so.

    Nothing about that is reasonable, so either make fade abilities that work 100% (on board with that) and have a reasonable cost to them, 20% endurance is too much if its the sum of your endurance pool, the timer on re-use is plenty in my view an endurance cost that is more reasonable would be appreciated, I'd say 5% or fix all the pathing problems - I am pretty sure I know which is a cheaper & easier fix.
    PCSS likes this.
  9. strongbus Augur

    my question is this. is the 20% mana/end cost of your total mana or what you have atm?
    PCSS and Jordis like this.
  10. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    With the increase of recast time and mana costs can wizzys get the following to compensate

    Exodus - reduction in cast time
    Nexus Gate - reduction in cast time
    Consussive Intuition - higher agro reduction
    Arcane Whisper - higher agro reduction
    Dimensional Instability - Lowers hatred more, absorbs more melee damage, has a shorter recast

    These haven't been upgraded since Broken Mirror and are way over due. Not being upgraded wasn't an issue when we had hole inspace available every 2 and a half minutes now we need to find another way to drop agro quickly.
  11. Goodkitty Augur

    Why is this a thing?

    Are you guys desperate for things to "tweak" to reach a quota for a patch to go out?
    PCSS and Teylana like this.
  12. Lianeb Augur

    I don't know about most people but fades were NOT mainly used to pull
    I am not going to say I don't like the changes for certain circumstances, however I think you missed the mark in where you feel these abilities are mainly used. This game has evolved to a place where most people don't care about dying and skills that help or restrict pulling in EQ today are a joke. The best pulling tool in the game right now is an Arrow (preferably to the furthest mob away).

    The main use of these abilities is to to escape combat so that you can use regen tools, and or the permanent Invis these abilities used to have for all classes. Few people use these tools outside the bard and the FD classes to pull mobs, it happens but it is not a rampant as you think it is based on your comments.

    I know from a Warrior perspective when the fade changes went live you only hurt us by not letting us use our endurance regen abilities during raids, which oh by the way you are still not fixing (+5 levels), and now I am glad I will not have the endurance to use the tool when I most want it (in a raid with no endurance, so i can hit breather or hiatus)

    You can certainly chalk this up to developers hard work that will not be used, by most.
    PCSS and Funky like this.
  13. Smokezz The Bane Crew

    If you really go through with this, can you at least remove the cast time from the various classes fades and make them all instant cast fades? Having such long recast times now + harsh endurance/mana on most classes.. at least make it usable for most. Nothing sucks more than a mispull, and trying to fade them off over and over because I stopped but didn't really stop according to the game.
  14. Ridiculousness New Member

    Just keep thinking your helping the game by doing these updates as you call them, 4 years later you just doing this stuff to get work put in so your not laid off acting like your helping the game and your not. Your losing your player base and really screwing yourself. Time to move on to another game. I hear wow classic is going now.
  15. Gomorrah Journeyman

    Just want to say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why do this? Yes, raiders like pulling with a bow to get the most mobs for them to swarm with their 500k hp, but for us casuals, why make it more difficult?

    But it is in keeping with the EQ ethos of "Nerf now, fix bugs never", so i'm not freaking surprised. It's things like this that encourage my eq vacations, luckily you guys posted this before I blew 300 bucks on expansions. Thanks.
    Teylana and Strumph like this.
  16. Ghubuk Augur

    Not sure I understand. Why does summon pet require a fade if your pet gets stuck on something due to pathing?
    PCSS likes this.
  17. Schuey New Member

    The Spoiled Rotten beyond belief replies boggle the mind :confused:
  18. LizardHealin New Member

    Sancus's explanation of the UEE raid is a perfect example of where pathing, stuck, running around like a chicken with its head off makes it useful. If he cant get his pet to him in the hallway because its doing that, it very well might die, costing a huge loss in DPS.

    The classes I have played, only Shaman fade was used right. The others were mostly used to split mobs with a wizard, fade a melee to hiatus (which will hurt them), or even run through a zone visible to the other end and mash that just to be lazy. All three of these I have done in the last month.

    I think some of the changes make sense, some things might be a bit heavy handed. Timers and resource costs mainly.
    PCSS, Sancus and Mithra like this.
  19. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Nice changes, lets fix Intensity next.

    Edit: With these changes would it be possible to consider raising the level cap of Pacification type spells to +3ish over current max level to allow them to be used in higher tier zones?
    Skuz, Strumph and Mithra like this.
  20. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    This X1000

    If these changes go ahead I will not be using A Hole in Space. If I didn't have a shed load of AAs I'm trying to get rid of as fast as I gain them I'd be asking for a AA refund as the AA will no longer be doing what it says on the tin. The AA cost is way too high. I'd be far better taking the death and getting a divine rez!

    I use it for agro reduction on raids, when I overcook the mob or the tank goes splat and decides it wants to do nasty things to me. I've been looking this morning at other agro reduction tools which have been severly neglected since the introduction of A Hole in Space. And will need to be upgraded and back filled in the relevent expansions to compensate for the loss agro reduction abilitiy from these changes.

    I asume when you say 20% you are talking 20% of total mana/end not 20% of current mana/end.

    Can wizzys have the 20% taken from endurance instead of mana? At least it would give us something to use our endurance on, being as we got a stupid amount of AAs to get it to regen but nothing to use it on! :rolleyes:
    Skuz and PCSS like this.