Population expectations and the definition of a dead server

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by jeskola, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. jeskola Why no Erudite Female avatar?

    I am wondering what people's definition of a dead server is, and what they expect population-wise.

    What do you base your definition on?

    - number of raid guilds clearing end game
    - number of raid guilds actively raiding anything
    - generalchat numbers
    - class chat numbers
    - bazaar vendor numbers
    - number of groups below max level

    It seems many people's definition of a "dead server" is drastically different, and population expectations have changed over the years.

    I would love to hear how other people view this.

    Personally, I tend to view things like they were in the old days.... 3+ active endgame raid guilds killing endgame, and maybe a couple more raiding but not at endgame, is a healthy server. I feel like people's population expectations have changed with tlp instancing and other games.
  2. Machentoo Augur

    It's somewhat relative. It's hard to see a server with five guilds as thriving when there are other servers with 30 guilds. But, I wouldn't consider a server really dead until all remaining guilds are struggling to complete content due to attrition and insufficient new players to replace the ones that quit.
  3. jeskola Why no Erudite Female avatar?

    I agree. I tend to also look at population health from a pre-tlp point of view, and that kind of view has changed a lot over the years, particularly with the lack of merges.
  4. Guzzle Augur

    A dead server, to me, is more about how the traffic goes.

    If you go off the old days comparison... 3 guilds at the upper tier of raiding was about all it could support, if even that many, depending on expansion. Even then, though, the group game is/was strong and the world was busy.

    If you look at Phinigel now, for instance, it has a decent number of high end guilds actively clearing content.. but the rest of the world is relatively dead, and groups are fairly infrequent while leveling. It may not be dead, but it's certainly not thriving. The number of viable guilds to join is shrinking. I would consider it a dying server for that reason.... but that's the nature of the beast as the game goes on.

    I think the only truly dead server is probably Fippy at this point, but a few of the TLP's are certainly inching closer to that point.
  5. AcemoneyFV Augur

    Only 3 guilds? What server did you start on? Just curious.

    Back before Xegony merged with Zebuxoruk, Zeb had like 6+ top raiding guilds. DH (there was another guild that merged with DH right during PoP I think, something Divine) IL, AoH, Frog Rompers, Stone, probably some more I'm missing. After the merger they added Nobles Companions, Jade(ed?) Dragon, Huhu Horde (I think most of these merged sometime after?).. probably even more than this, plus all the casual raiding guilds. A few of these are still around today.

    I think 3 guilds is a little small eh?
  6. Guzzle Augur

    Sure, in the time frame you're talking about (full raid instancing) it could support that many. 6 guilds weren't clearing Plane of Time pre-instancing. 6 guilds weren't clear Vex Thal. 6 guilds weren't clearing SSRA.

    Again, at best in the actual "old days" you had around 3 guilds actually competing for the top end targets. That's what I'm referring to as top raiding guilds.

    Looking at the progression tracker from back then, it looks like 3 guilds on Xegony even raided Anguish before 2007. Data could be flawed, but I think your recollection or perception of what was a top raiding guild that far back is a bit skewed.
  7. Moege Augur

  8. Aegir Augur

    All TLP servers will start having a declining Pick up Group/Exp base around Luclin and become very top heavy moving on. With the Rate new TLPs currently being released, I don't see this change anytime soon.

    So if you judge your EQ Server experience upon getting Pick up Groups fast when you log on by turning on LFG, many Servers die very fast after the first few expansions. After those expacs, your progress is totally based upon your Guild and your personal Network of Friends to do stuff with. A lot of players doesn't want to pro-actively invest themselves into that type of community playstyle and will start up again on a new TLP when it launches, thus the cycle resets.

    I think the best approach is to say, Are you having fun and are able to achieve goals with other people having fun, then I'd say your Server is still healthy for you.

    If you are measuring it by new people starting up with a vibrant casual LFG scene for pickup groups through all levels, then it's basically only the newest hottest TLP server that will be having the title as "not dying"
  9. AlaskaJay Lorekeeper




    I have played on multiple TLPs at this point and in regards to this first point you made the rate at which people get to "screw pugs" is accelerating. Back on Phinny it may have taken as long as Luclin, even Agnarr wasn't too bad, but the last whole month of classic there were several days I would take a stroll down The Hole and find guild groups at every camp CE thru Docks. All while a mountain of people wait LFG inside and just outside the zone. No obvious boxers but a solid 24 people all with premade guild groups without a PuG in sight. Granted that is just a single pick, on a few random nights, but it's not something you saw as frequently this early in a TLPs life cycle.

    I think the more frequent TLP players are more or less over it with PuGs and even though Mangler itself is still fresh I would say most people playing have already dabbled with prior servers. Either they move together to the new hotness or have just learned it's more advantageous to hitch their wagon to a guild as soon as they get here.

    I spent much of the last month of classic forming guild groups to help get my guildmates over the 46+ hump using the characters I already had 50 and capped. Saving them the trouble of actually having to scrape and claw for groups. Half the time when they did find one it would end in glorious failure anyways. So building groups within the guild was really the best option.
  10. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

  11. Dabrixmgp Augur

    saying a TLP server is dead because it only has 4 or 5 guilds means literally every Live server is dead. According to http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/ every server has 4 or 5 guilds. Yet when I log onto FV, or BB, or Xegony I see lots of people. Phinney still has guilds actively clearing current conent as does Ragefire. The fact they are dead outside of raiding is no different than any other server.
  12. Accipiter Old Timer


    The two HoT Tier 4 zones, Morrel's Castle and Sanctum Somnium, generally have around 20 players each. Often we get a second pick. I'm sure there is zero population in the leveling game, though.
  13. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Less than 50 Traders in the bazaar
    Few/No Krono for Sale
    1 Raid guild "competing" on new expansion releases
    Severilious or Kelorek'Dar Life Expectancy > an hour
  14. Gremin Augur

    Any server currently in PoR expansion.
  15. Silver-Crow Augur

    Here's how I'd define the steady decline.

    Healthy Server: Several large raid guilds, and lots of smaller less hard core guilds. Guilds also have a steady stream of applicants, and there are no shortage of pugs. For new servers there's usually a high number of krono farmers.

    Steady Server - some of the smaller guilds have gone, guild applications are keeping up with member atrophy and population is relatively stable. There are still pugs, but not as many as there were, and typically these are only at max level... so levelling is a solitary affair.

    Dying Server: Guild applications have dried up, and guilds are starting to merge in order to continue to raid. Most of the smaller guilds have disbanded and membership has been hoovered up by the larger guilds. In Era content is still being cleared by several of the larger guilds.

    Life Support: XP groups are non existent outside of guild/circle of friends. Guild mergers have slowed and while raids are still happening, they're rarely filled. This continues until content cannot be cleared by current raid force, after which guilds disband and players leave for other servers. One or 2 guilds may hang about, but these are mostly social guilds and generally only raid older content.

    Dead. New starts log in, see there are only 6 people in general, and rarely anyone over lvl 50 and then log out. Typically there is no chat or any activity outside people's personal box groups.
  16. Bobbybix New Member


    It all comes down to what each person views as a dead server. I personally think when your left with players like this PoS here ^^. The servers dead. Krono farmers and people who steal from their own guild. Drives everyone away.
    Pig farmers gotta make money somehow though.
  17. Bewts Augur

    Nearly all TLP are Dead on Arrival. The question is not if, but when the server progression will stall.

    With the new generation of unlocking mechanisms, the newer ones will most certainly reach a “Live” status but it may be a very empty server when it does. Mostly because DBG itself offers alternatives to hit a reset button on new TLP so often there’s plenty of opportunities to play elsewhere.

    From a player’s point of view, I think we’d all like mechanisms in place that would consolidate those population starved servers before a complete stall; I just don’t think DBG has the appetite to invest in a policy and execute on it when these things happen to the remaining clear to vote to advance servers.

    Ragefire and Lockjaw are a shining example of how new TLP hurt their chances to reach live status. Those of us that play there still will have to deal with the reality that the 4+ years invested so far will ultimately result in a graveyard of characters that we’ll have to move on from or move to a live server. I expect we have a good year or two, maybe three left before the remaining population must work together to unlock expansions instead of competing against each other for bragging rights on who does it first.

    But to answer the OP: I don’t think there’s a good metric players can see to declare a server “Dead”, but there’s plenty of signs. The easiest is probably counting bazaar traders as it’s a fair indicator of how many people are playing in generally non-raid content and have farmed things they don’t need. The less people doing this, the less there is for sale, which means people have either stopped logging in or only do so to raid and you’re squarely in full attrition mode for raid attendance. Without raiding, servers stall so it’s a good early indicator.
  18. Boze TLP complaint factory

    Phinny hasn't "died" per se but it's crossed a threshold into the sort of population that a live server has. 6 guilds still raiding (though I'm assuming for LotA, don't see them on the tracker), "new" content is decently populated, old content / leveling game is barren.
  19. Spayce Augur

    Only thing that matters to me is a raid force online during my play times.

    The rest of the players on the server could vanish and I wouldn't care who calls it a "dead server".

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