Please remove truebox limit from Aradune.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Viceversa, Jul 28, 2022.

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  1. Captain Video Augur

    This is a false statement which keeps getting repeated by several people here. There was enforcement, quite a lot of it during the first six months of the server. As I said to someone else in another post, where do you think the term "Karendune" came from? It was because there were hundreds of reported violations of the 2-box rule, some of which were legit and many others were bogus. Many suspensions were issued, some of which were legit and others were undeserved. The petitioning was weaponized. You can search back in the forum history and see MANY other players on the server commenting on this pattern of behavior. It was the most toxic I've ever seen in my own EQ history. Enforcement did slack off after that six-month window, because the experimental bonus GM support announced at server launch went away. That doesn't mean enforcement flat-out died, it just means you weren't noticing it.

    My argument is that your argument is fundamentally flawed, in that your claim there was "no such rule for the first 2 years of the server" is easy to prove false.
  2. McJumps TLP QoL Activist

    Ok lets allow for a moment to assume that what you say is correct. Your argument is still that my argument is flawed? That is not an argument against a rule change. I don't want you to argue against me, I want you to argue against the rule change. Lets leave personal feelings out of it. Try to find a way to articulate why, you feel, that this rule change would be detrimental to Aradune as a server. So far all I have heard from you is that the rule must not be changed because it might cause other rules in the future to be changed. We are not discussing future theoretical servers. We are discussing Aradune specifically. Do you have any argument whatsoever?

    Would you not agree, that any rule that results in the suspension of players who are not disobeying any rules is a flawed rule to begin with? This is another issue I have with the 2-box limit. People are being suspended who have broken no such rule.

    I do not have any solutions for how to fix the malicious reporting and subsequent suspensions other than to remove the rule upon which they are being predicated. If a rule cannot be enforced equally across the entire server, without mistakes happening such as accounts suspended for no wrong doing, it should not be a rule. By your own admission, the rule was not enforced equally after the 6 month period beginning at launch. If that is the case - and it very well may be, I do not box so I don't really know - then the suspensions we are seeing now for people that are not breaking any rules are even more egregious.

    This rule seems to be causing more drama and grief than it was originally designed to prevent. That is the hallmark of a bad policy.
  3. Viceversa Elder

    Do you have any proof of this? Iirc Karendune came from early in the server when aradune was asking for changes to vp/vt key ect..
  4. Captain Video Augur

    Do your own forum search, go back two years. I'm not going to do your busywork for you. Yes, there was grief over the keying when that time came, but the petition wars were going strong when the server was only two weeks old. When other recurring issues finally arrived, not only keying but epic bottlenecks, training in certain zones, etc etc, quite a few people dismissed it all with the tag line "Never mind them, it's just the Karendune server." The 2-box rule was what got that ball rolling.

    See, you just did it again. The rule wasn't designed to "prevent" anything. Competition for scarce resources is part and parcel of Classic-era EQ, it cannot be prevented. Well there's one way it can, never launch any more TLPs, but is that what you want? As long as there is competition, there is going to be some amount of drama and grief, it's called human nature. Adding a rule won't make that go away. Removing a rule won't make that go away.

    I never said any of the recent suspensions were egregious. Some people have publicly admitted to being suspended and have claimed it was egregious, but I don't necessarily believe them. My perception is that bad decisions were made before on account of the authority being placed in the hands of part-time new hires who weren't familiar with the game and not properly trained. Those people are no longer involved, AFAIK.
    Koshk likes this.
  5. McJumps TLP QoL Activist

    And once again you pick through my post and find one or two things to disagree with instead of making an argument against the rule change. If the rule was not designed for a specific purpose, then it has no business being a rule for which you can be suspended for violating in the first place. No training is a rule which serves a purpose. You can be suspended for purposely training someone because it disrupts their gameplay in a very negative way. Please tell me what you feel is the purpose of the 2-box rule.

    If a person is suspended for breaking the 2-box rule, and they were not breaking that rule, that is the very definition of egregious. You say you don't believe the people who stated this has happened to them recently, and in the very next sentence, you give reasons and excuses as to why it might have happened. You cannot have it both ways. Either they were suspended wrongly or not, and if you feel they are fabricating the scenario, why list reasons why you think they might have been suspended wrongly?

    As I said before, I don't want you to argue against me, I would like to see you argue against the changing of the rule because you have a solid argument that the rule change would negatively effect the server. You seem to be incapable of doing this, so I will simply disregard any further posts from you on this subject, unless you can tell me what purpose this rule serves, or you can at least present one way in which removal of this rule will negatively impact Aradune. I can only assume if you had a decent argument against the rule change, you would have certainly posted it by now.
    Gheed likes this.
  6. Gheed Augur

    You aren't part of any community on the server though. It seems how you play the game actually is the opposite of encouraging a community.

    You have no guild.

    You never group with people.

    You have never raided.

    You are wearing armor from classic Everquest in TSS.

    You have never competed for a camp/named or anything else of that nature.

    Its like you type words just to type them, truth be damned.
    Skuz, Somnium Wintersun, Maph and 4 others like this.
  7. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    You simply do not understand the difference with BOXing and BOTing. Most of your negative arguments are against BOTers and have nothing at all to do with BOXers. You are yelling fire, when there is no fire and it helps no one.
  8. Captain Video Augur

    I've already posted my argument several times in this way-off-the-rails thread. It's the actual rule. The status quo is on my side. You want it changed, keep lobbying for it to change, I'm not stopping you. Good luck with that.
  9. Rcbauer Augur

    Please don't.
    Look at Yelinak and how overrun by box crews it is. That's terrible for EQ.

    Leave Aradune alone.
  10. Dailor Augur

    Hate to say it, but the petitionquest, AFK checks, etc. have been going since the jump. Ya'll didn't have to suffer it nearly as much from Classic-Prophecy of Ro because of your buffer.

    Godspeed. 75+ should be a time to rejoice, sucks it has to be this way.
    Maph, Brazy, Gherig and 2 others like this.
  11. sieger Augur

    No. This passage here literally undermines the concept of having a rules based society. This would be like claiming we need to throw out the entire criminal code in real life because police and prosecutors can only imperfectly enforce various laws.

    Correct. I have advocated against Truebox (almost across the board) for 7 years, when they made the decision to allow Phinigel / Selo to run to live without altering it, to me that set what I view as a binding precedent--you keep the rules to the end more or less no matter what. While I disagreed with that decision, that decision gives the player base certainty and clarity. That has some value in itself. The precedent is set, and should be maintained--players going forward know that the precedent is the precedent, and can make their decisions appropriately. For example, if someone is knowledgeable about TLPs, they might conclude going on a server with Aradune's ruleset when Rizlona (which is now healthier) was an option is a bad server choice. To my mind this is good, because it will help undermine the idea that Truebox is a good rule.

    No, the threshold has not been met for boxing rule changes on any server, period. There is no threshold for this--the boxing rules, as per precedent, should not be changed.

    The move to Relaxed Truebox with PoR and Regular Boxing in TBS are part of the posted rules of Vaniki and Yelinak, posted prior to the launch of those servers. That means I am in favor of that--that is what the server rules are. Aradune was never advertised as having its boxing rules be limited to only X expansions.

    Actually this is not true. Truebox was cooked up by basically one developer, with very limited real thought as to its consequences. It worked pretty terribly, and has never been a great thing. It was seeking to address perceived problems of Ragefire and Lockjaw, while ignoring that the core cause of conflict on those servers was the lack of AOC. Truebox is generally a bad rule because the most egregious boxers who cause the most community toxicity and harm, have effortlessly been boxing around Truebox since 2015. Meanwhile the "normal" players who would likely benefit tremendously from things like being able to run a casual 2nd char (healer / utility most likely), are largely at a huge disadvantage. Note that all the "famous" RMTers almost always flock to the Truebox server. Why? Because Truebox does not constrain them, and it gives them a huge competitive advantage against people who follow the rules.

    I have always been against Truebox, and always will be. However, it is an established rule, with established precedent--and those need to be followed uniformly.

    It was always a bad rule. Generally speaking the people who come up with rules and ideas for EQ are not good at their jobs and make bad decisions almost continually. However, the playerbase does need consistency and we have that, this issue needs left alone at this point.
  12. Viceversa Elder

    Wow, Just wow.

    All rule based societies make changes and adapt over time. It's not like throwing out the criminal code because we aren't asking for hacks and m q 2, One of the big reasons most people on Aradune do not want to go to Rizlona.

    You were a guild leader right? Are you telling me you never made any changes or adapted your rules?
  13. Viceversa Elder

    Consistency doesn't always mean zero changes. Fixing bad rules and adjusting tlp servers to better fit the population of the servers is consistent itself
  14. Angeliana Senior Community Manager

    This thread has devolved into name calling and insults. It is now closed.
    Captain Video likes this.
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