Please remove truebox limit from Aradune.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Viceversa, Jul 28, 2022.

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  1. Rhythar Augur

    To those of you that cheated (or helped cheaters) and damaged the community... you don't get to complain about inadequate population now after you contributed to its decline in the first place.
  2. Vnayin New Member

    Every TLP ever has had terrible population post PRo, but Aradune is the only one where the reason is because the "community was damaged"....
  3. Rhythar Augur

    There is usually more than 1 reason for the decline of any server, and cheating affects other servers too.
  4. Wyora New Member

    The anti-boxers seem to have it in their head that anyone wanting to play more than 2 characters is either running automated scripts/software, really wants to box a whole army, and will kill community. This couldn't be further from the truth. I have characters I want to take pride in their development - work on quests, tradeskills and achievements. Having a merc in my group doesn't fulfill that desire.

    Before someone says "invite a real human being that wants to do the same thing," there are a lot of reasons why that doesn't work for me. Often my boyfriend or I need to take pauses either for work, or I'm cooking, or need to take the dog out. If its an evening where we're settled in for some real play, we just want to enjoy our time together. We're in a long-distance relationship, so this is our "date night."

    There's a middle ground between limiting play to 2 characters per person, and having rampant box armies (Rizlona). I definitely don't want the latter. Keeping True-Box (as much as it hurts my power bill with time of use rates), but relaxing the box limit would help find that middle ground.
    Skuz and Koshk like this.
  5. Rhythar Augur

    Any change to an existing server is probably a bad idea, including my own idea.
  6. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    Agreed, rules change all time but you’re talking about changing the main feature of the server, 2 box limit. It’s like asking to change Mischief to a regular server without random loot. It’s the defining feature.

    I’d say transfer to Rizlona, but honestly Rizlona doesn’t want the Aradune crowd. So, I’d concede that relaxing the ruleset would be in the best interest of the game.
  7. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    I would argue your idea is worse because a merc is worse then an actual player or box and if you are going to argue that one rule change is bad you should not be suggesting another one should be made.
  8. Rhythar Augur

    You can have 2 accounts with 14 characters each. You can play all the classes/races you want without breaking the rules. Gotta catch em all, right?
  9. Gheed Is not reading your response

    I contributed more to Aradune than you ever will.

    Go ask the server who they liked more.... Gheed the White Knight or Rhythar the Elf-Sim Police?


    Aradune lost a lot of players recently, not in velious, from what I have seen. The perfect storm of garbage content, a couple people pretending following players with OBS was their day job, and a specific Fussy guild that would enjoy playing on the server all by themselves.

    You reap what you sow buddy. Enjoy yourself.
    Ishbu, PatCleric and Yaldiien like this.
  10. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Skuz likes this.
  11. Captain Video Augur

    I don't agree with most of what Rythar says, but...

    Server rules and game mechanics are two completely different things, and I think any veteran player is capable of telling the difference.

    Two guys walk into a bar, and immediately start arguing with the bartender about the sign outside that says only two people can enter at a time, which has forced their friends to wait outside the door. Bartender says the sign was put up when the place first opened, and they were packed every night. First guy says, well it's not packed now, the place is practically empty, so why the sign. While this is going on, second guy notices a third guy materialize out of thin air, proceed to steal their drinks, and disappear again. Don't ask me what the moral to the story is, I have no idea.
    Tweakfour17 likes this.
  12. sieger Augur

    I agree with almost nothing Rhythar says or why he says it. But I think he has the right of it when he mentions there are all kinds of other servers with alternative rules, the default assumption for a server rule is it should be maintained for the life of the server. The onus is on meeting a really high threshold, in my opinion, to change the rule midstream. I don't think "players don't like the rule" is a good reason, they knew the rules going in.

    I think if it is clear a rule is non-workable, or isn't working as intended, that's a good reason--a lot of the revisions to TLPs and their rulesets over the years have been along those lines, or if the change isn't really a rule change but just a technical change (like making Bandolier and Extended Target available earlier weren't "rule changes", they were just technical changes.)

    There is no particular evidence Aradune under its current rules is unworkable. It was one of the highest population TLPs for a long time, and now its population is declining. I have been on several TLPs that continued for many years with less players than Aradune. Phinny and Selo both reached live with a lot fewer players than Aradune has now, as did Miragul. Lockjaw had lower player count than Aradune does now for something like 5 years before it was merged into Ragefire. There is nothing broken about Aradune, it's just an innate part of TLPs that the player base declines over time, that in and of itself, is not a reason to change the rules midstream.
    Skuz, Tweakfour17 and Captain Video like this.
  13. AgentofChange Augur

    To be fair, many of the TLP servers now make it to live regardless of the playerbase. Aradune can drop to 0 players and it will still make it to live ;)
  14. McJumps TLP QoL Activist

    I think some people are missing the point entirely on the timeline of what is being asked here. No one, to my knowledge, is asking for this rule to be changed effective immediately. Its going to take time, as any change does. I have been asking on these forums for aggro meters as part of the UI since Aradune launched and I started playing a Wizard. That change is now, thankfully, being implemented. Beginning to ask for this change now gives a better chance for the change later on down the road. Seeing as Rhythar has already stated that he will leave the server when Mercs become available, any change to the rule from SoD onward would have zero impact on him.

    Most of the server rules (Truebox, Random loot, Level locks, etc) are implemented evenly across the server at all times. No one on Vaniki is circumventing the level lock to gain levels before anyone else on the server, because it is impossible. Any rule that is specific to a server that can be circumvented is inherently a bad rule, because enforcement of that rule is applied unevenly. This means the rule is NOT working as intended, as if it were it would be applied to EVERYONE at all times EVENLY. An argument for people circumventing Truebox with VMs could be made, but as far as I know, the switch to a 64-bit client solved most of that.

    Truebox is also a rule on many servers that they are discussing changing. Do you also think this should not change, because there is "no particular evidence" that it should be changed? Do you think the "high threshold" has been met on other servers with Truebox currently, and do you feel the same about that rule change as you do raising the 2-box limit here on Aradune? If the default assumption is that rules remain in effect for the life of the server, you MUST oppose any relaxation or removal of Truebox on any servers other than Vaniki or Yelinak, correct?

    Truebox and the 2-box limit are rules that were implemented for basically the same reason: to prevent one person from dominating a camp/spawn early on in the game (Classic-PoP) when doing so would be a huge problem and cause a lot of toxic behavior. We have now passed the point on Aradune where this rule is effective in its original purpose. Same goes for Truebox, but I will leave that for another thread.

    If there is no longer a reason for the rule, it is a bad rule. Rules should be to counter or support a specific thing, and if that specific thing no longer exists, there is no longer a reason for said rule. With most relevant content in the later eras of EQ being instanced, the 2-box limit has no purpose any longer

    I am still waiting patiently for anyone who opposes this rule change to give specific ways in which a change would negatively impact GAMEPLAY on Aradune. Mostly what I am hearing is an argument that rule changes are bad by default without any mention of negative or positive impact of said rules change. Not one of you can articulate why this change would be bad for the server.

    As I have said so many times before that I am almost sick of saying it, I DO NOT BOX on this server. If they ever were to remove or relax Truebox, I MIGHT box one additional toon, so an increase in the 2-box limit will NEVER impact my gameplay personally. I am curious to hear from the people who think this will impact their gameplay in a negative way. One way or the other, it is not going to impact me negatively, so if other people want a change, I have no reason to oppose it. if this change does not effect you personally (i.e. you don't play on the server) I am struggling to find a reason for your opposition.

    My only assumption can be that those of you who oppose this change and it does not effect you personally enjoy debate, which I can understand to a point, but eventually it gets tiresome when this change has the possible potential, I think, coupled with a relaxation of Truebox, to save Aradune from some of the issues that have plagued other servers late in their life-cycle. Notice I said Possible. There is no guarantee, but I feel the potential positive effects of this change out-weigh the potential negative effects, and that was all it took for me to hitch my cart to this horse.

    Ask yourself: would raising the 2-box limit to a 3-box limit REALLY impact the server that much from its current state? If you are finding it hard to come up with an answer to that simple question, then it may be time for you to re-evaluate your opposition to this change.
    Tormier and Leoden like this.
  15. Gheed Is not reading your response

    "Just go play on another server"

    Some of the finest minds of Everquest baby
    PatCleric likes this.
  16. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Conceptually I agree, but where that line is can be debated. One could argue Xp rates are server rules not game play mechanics and they change multiple times during a server's life. These points and % bumps are known now, but were they known for phinny? Expansion release dates are possibly one of the most core rules for a server and we've had a few examples very recently where they were changed. The "you knew what you signed up for" crowd only cares when it relates to boxing.
    Skuz likes this.
  17. Ishbu Augur

    So let me get this straight, an unprecedented world wide pandemic put many people stuck on at home. Only 2 servers were released at this time to draw in the new and returning players who now had availability to play games, one without truebox allowing mass box armies and one with true box, that promised active in game GM presence and rule enforcement.

    The new and returning players overwhelmingly would choose the truebox server. Unfortunately the in game GM presence and rule enforcement was a complete lie and was never ever a reality. On top of that the server stability was a complete dumpster fire, yet because of the pandemic, many people persisted through it because there just wasnt much else to do.

    Weeks became months, expansion after expansion, these so called 2 box rules and in game GM presence never were enforced. Necro box crews ran rampant in classic, in kunark, dont even get me started on sirens grotto, the automated AE groups in the deep, and so on. After a full year, the remaining players who didnt pack it in adapted to the reality and you started seeing people running 3 or 4 boxes, and nobody really had any issue with it.

    Another year went by, the server population continued to shrink and on top of that, Daybreak continued to treat the population like absolute garbage, constantly messing up their expansion launches multiple times. Then after 2 full years of no enforcement, and the player base fully adapting, now Daybreak is going around punishing people running 3+ characters, all on different PCs? That is a horrendous way to manage the server, there is no excuse for it.

    The community vastly agrees it is past time to end this false pretense of limiting people to 2 accounts or less. There is absolutely no precedent for this server at all both in the rule set, the failure to ever maintain those rules, and the worldwide pandemic that lured people to it in the first place. Anyone saying that new/returning players should have all just sat around for a year and waiting for a different server, which didnt end up being a regular server, so actually sitting around for 2 years to wait for Yelinak is just an ignorant person making idiotic suggestions. Anyone suggesting these players should have just scrapped all the time, effort, and relationships they may have formed and started over is equally ignorant.

    There is no comparison for what Aradune is, has been, and was released during. Rizlona is not the same server. If you think transferring there is a solution, then you are saying running an army of boxes is no different than playing 1 or 2, and therefore there should be no reason not to end that nonsense on Aradune as the server community is requesting.

    These are supposed to be progression servers, progress requires changes and adjustments over time. It is clear both in game and on these boards a vast majority of actual players on the server would be good with removing this 2 box maximum and subsequent harassment, in order to maintain a server that can actually continue to progress for years to come.

    There has not been a single reasonable reason provided not to do this, and Daybreaks failure to even acknowledge the issue and desire of the community who adapted to their failed promises, speaks volumes to how little they care.
  18. Tweakfour17 Augur

    I mostly agree, I stated earlier in in this thread the request to drop 2 box from Aradune is the equivalent of asking to drop random loot / free trade from mischief. This is the special feature of that particular server. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in discussion about it though, maybe there will be a reason to no longer want/need random loot and I hope if it's good the devs will at least consider. Same with 2 box.
    This reply would have more punch if the people wanting less restrictive boxing didn't have a server in the exact same era they can transfer to for FREE at any time and enjoy less restrictive boxing.
  19. Ishbu Augur

    This really isnt the same at all.

    2 box enforcement didnt actually exist on Aradune for 2 years, it only recently has become a thing, long after the remaining playerbase adapted to the reality of the server. If Mishchief goes 2 years where there is no random or tradeable loot and its all normal, then we can revisit this comparison, but until then, there has never been another ruleset that was flat out not enforced at all for 2 full years to start, forcing the players to adapt
  20. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Just because the enforcement has lapsed players should not assume the rules have changed, anyone burned by the enforcement who cries about it not existing for literally ages only has themselves to blame for making assumptions.
    Koshk and Tweakfour17 like this.
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