Playing Unattended

Discussion in 'Player Support' started by minton, Sep 13, 2020.

  1. minton New Member

    This is in reference to the Play Nice Policies, the supplementary guidelines which define what activities are appropriate. More specifically:It is not permitted for an account to be played unattended or AFK. If you are going to be away from the computer for more than a few seconds please move your character to an empty corner of the zone or log out completely. If a character, including any pets or mercs, is found performing actions while the user is away disciplinary action may be taken against the account.
    If your character does not have a pet up, or no merc active, and not aggroing any mobs, are you "playing" or just logged in?
    Should the above policy be read in it totality? I read it as, if you did not violate the third line, you are not in violation.
    Does being in a group, change anything?
  2. minton New Member

  3. minton New Member

    If you did not have /log active, what other means to you have to protect yourself in case you experience a suspension presently or in the future?
  4. KermittheFroglok Augur

    I disagree, the first two sentences suffice for action in a combat zone.
  5. minton New Member

    IMO, Then the third line is redundant and not needed then. IMO, I think it just adds to my confusion.
  6. minton New Member

    Also, adding to my confusion, in the many years of playing, I never (and that is accurate) remember someone who I was in a group with, move their character to a safe corner of the zone or log out completely if being away from the computer for more than a few seconds (and you can stretch that to 10 to 15 mins).

    Any opinion on the stats who actually do the above?
  7. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Nope I don't usually do any of the above, the rogue is SOS, the SK & Beast are FD and the wizzy is either invis or UvI depending on live or dead mobs.

    The only time I have done it in the past has been while the Wizzy has been soloing and the doorbell goes, then it is usually a quick Exodus and hope the "safe spot" is safe.
  8. minton New Member

    "Nope I don't usually do any of the above, the rogue is SOS, the SK & Beast are FD and the wizzy is either invis or UvI depending on live or dead mobs"
    Thus violating "If you are going to be away from the computer for more than a few seconds please move your character to an empty corner of the zone or log out completely. "

    Again, then, imo, those three sentences are applied as together.
    What is the most heard word in a group setting.? Is it BRB? It is not brb, and I am camping. It is not BRB, I am moving my toon to the other side of the zone. It is a plain, BRB. If the tank goes brb, then the whole group is AFK, and according to, imo, the rules not taken, in its entirety , is guilty of section 8.
  9. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    That's a ridiculous conclusion to draw, a group whose tank is taking a short bio can often handle one or two mobs albeit with a greater degree of difficulty than with the tank active.

    Are you setting out to get someone in trouble just because their tank took a short break? If you are that's incredibly petty.
    PCSS and Yinla like this.
  10. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Its not the third line, it is the whole of the 2nd sentence. There are more ways to be "safe" than logging or moving to a different spot. The important part is the first and the last sentence, its is the second sentence that clouds the issue and should be removed.

    Also if you follow that ruling everyone AFK in the guild lobby, guild halls, bazaar or Plane of Knowledge should all be in a corner or logged out!
    PCSS likes this.
  11. minton New Member

    I was in a group, and with the permission of the group, stopped contributing to the group (add to point that my character was not getting hit; not aggroing the mobs)- . In this situation, I was at my desktop (or I should say desktop computers), but not pressing any keys on the keyboard associated with the character in this group I mentioned. I seen a disconnect message on the screen, with a black backdrop. I thought I lost my internet connection, not uncommon. I could not log back in.
    I later get an email saying I was cheating. Cheating? (when I think of cheating, I am thinking a third party software running. The only third party software I am aware of is ghost kill. It was used 10 or 15 years ago and have no idea if it is still used. ) I petitioned to learn I violated section 8.
    IMO, If I was in violation of "unattended game play", the countless other characters I grouped with over the years also could have been tagged as cheating. IMO, the most often /g talk is hiya, thanks, and BRB. Thank you Yinla in pointing out that line two clouds the issue. I agree, line two should be removed. If you read section 8 by the letter of the law, everyone that says "BRB";and did not camp, or move to a corner of the zone have opened themselves to discipline. In a lot of instances, like being in a dungeon crawl, or like in a zone like Howling Stones, it is impossible to adhere to line two. Also, imo, you are again correct, everyone in POK or GL is violating line two of that section. I agree with you.
    PCSS likes this.
  12. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Was the group you were in cheating? If they answer is you don't know that would probably be the problem. I suspect some PLers afk PL players for a fee after telling them to go afk if they want.

    If they were cheating you should probably learn more about any group before going afk in it.
    PCSS likes this.
  13. KermittheFroglok Augur

    minton, I'm not sure I can disagree with the GMs in your case or what your goal is on this thread

    The GM protocol seems to be to send a message, if you missed the message then you failed their test to prove you were "attending" your computer. They seem willing to lift suspensions when someone can prove they were at the computer through a combat log, but you even admit you weren't touching any keys (in the middle of combat).

    To put it in a nutshell, the word "attend" is derived from the word "attention". The most common definitions mean you were paying attention. It's more than just sitting at your computer, its actually paying attention to EQ,

    I don't want to burst anyone's bubble but the second sentence exists and clearly indicates DBG wants you "in any empty corner of the zone" or logged off. I agree its confusing because the latter sentence offers a penalty while the first doesn't, but given how the ToS says they can generally ban you for violation, it should be obvious that the latter sentence is there for emphasis because so many tried to argue it "was fair to use mercs/pets" because they're not bots.

    To add, they don't say "go to a safe area of the zone" they go further and say "empty corner", not "safe spot"

    Just so everyone understands what "a corner" means:

    Corner [Webster, noun 3(a)] - a private, secret, or remote place

    If the sentence didn't matter it wouldn't exist and likewise people wouldn't be getting suspended. Getting people on the forums to interpret it your way doesn't change how the DBG interprets their policy. I think how DBG enforces it should answer your question enough.

    Even if that sentence weren't there, you still admit to soaking up experience and leveling, and leveling is reasonably an action. No one wants to see someone else suspended for accidentally violating the rules, but your argument is a stretch because you're asking DBG to ignore the middle sentence of their AFK policy & to take your word on the honor system that you weren't [technically] cheating.

    I've camped stuff for hours and had random people (not sure if its a GM or player, don't care) send me tells or messages asking if I'm at my computer, I respond, and I haven't been suspended. If you're monitoring your computer enough to respond or occasionally moving/fighting its one thing, if your toon is idle as your group fights and you're just "sitting there" not watching for nearby actions/tells then the toon is clearly not attended.

    Hopefully they'll give you a break and either lift the suspension or reduce it to a first warning. But honestly, compared to other threads your case seems harder to get overturned because it relies on a GM just taking your word for it.
  14. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Which means everyone AFK in the middle of the guild lobby and Plane of Knowledge is breaking the rules.

    It doesn't say just in combat zones or that non combat zones are exempt.
  15. KermittheFroglok Augur


    At the same time zones like PoK, Bazaar, guild, housing, even the trading section of Commonlands zone themselves are inherently remote from where actual game play occurs. Short of automating trade skills or foraging, what are you going to do in those types of areas? The Devs understand some zones are used to rally/congregate & appropriately use discretion there. They're not going the have a GM ambush a guild logging in or gathering for a raid, Commonlands traders, or even people just sitting in PoK because it's frankly not worth their time or effort to ban/suspend AFK in an area you expect someone to literally do nothing. Worst case scenario is someone experiences a little more lag or frame skipping in many of those spots.

    The intent of the AFK policy is to prevent people from making progress, while literally doing nothing. They have built mechanics like offline Bazaar traders & Overseer for people to make passive progress and that's fine to use. But it should just be common sense you can't just let other people level your character for you while you're not paying attention to it.

    We can go back and forth over and over, but like it or not, the DBG GM's ultimately have the discretion to interpret the rules and warn, suspend, or ban accounts in accordance to the rules they outline. Again, the sentence exists for a reason and per complaints on other threads, people are getting suspended for ignoring it. So I don't really see what's open for "debate" or "interpretation".
    PCSS likes this.
  16. Brutus Journeyman

    As I continue to read the forums concerning this topic, it is alarming how much player's angst there is and confusion about this topic. IMO, t speaks volumes that Everquest has a rule that players can not understand with CERTAINTY what the rule is. And what is permissible or what is not.
    I never had a unsolicited tell from a GM. Now I learn, you may get a tell from a GM, or a say. Even now, knowing that can happen, there is a possibility I would miss it again. I believe at the time, I was actually looking at general chat, and responding to such. I was also buying in the bazaar. To do such I was not away from my keyboard or computer, I was not just engaged in combat. Now I know there is such a thing as /log. Is this what I have to do to protect myself in the future. For a game!!! I admit, I could been away from my computer as well over a period of 8 hours of play time, but I was in a group and I was not at spawn point, because I was not getting hit. If I did walk away from my computer in an eight hour or ten hour time frame, I did, like 100s of peeps did, over the years of play - say in group chat BRB. I also experienced that sometimes a group went on "pause" until that person came back - or everyone took that time to take a break. I never seen a GM give each one of us a tell - then remove us. And now I know that could happen!
    Way before this happened I was in a group, and doing merc missions. They stopped playing, and I needed one more mob to kill for completion of one of the merc missions. After two days of trying to find a group to finish this mission, I was invited to a group which would allow me to finish the mission. I found the boxer and me had connections outside of Everquest. It so happened that the bonus experience was active and I meet up with the box group for such.
    1) If the first group killed the last mob I would not had connect with the second group.
    2) If the bonus experience did not end prematurely early, I would not been online the next day,
    3) If I did not buy a 4 hour experience pot, I would not have stayed on that long.
    4) If I did not have Lod available, I would have not been online.
    5) Since I was not using /log I have no means to show when I activated Lod or show that I was typing for general chat. I even know what I said in general chat.

    The person running a third party software like /ghost kill is more likely anticipated a disconnect than someone saying brb. Think of it, if a GM puts the hammer down and suspends everyone who does /g BRB, the servers would be empty. Warn people first! - a percentage of the population is not aware that rule 8 exists or what it means. You also have to go on the forums to learn you have to respond to a gm tells or says.
    I will get my character back. I will not get back my heightened enthusiasm for the game. I believe I bought ten TOV expansions including the family pack, and the some collector's pack, including countless bags. I will not be renewing either. That is a good some of money that any company would love as recurring revenue (with no customer acquisition cost attached).
    - Everquest - I doubt this will ever happen but, imo, do not have a rule that is so confusing to a percentage of the population - especially when you hear BRB all the time!
    So I guess that's my goal.
    PCSS likes this.
  17. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Which is why that 2nd sentence is nonsense. When I'm FD, SOS, or invis I'm not going to be agroing anything while AFK so what harm is there in not logging out or moving to a corner (though a lot of corners have mobs in them).

    I box, but I am what I call a lazy boxer I will have 5 chars in a group but only 2 or 3 will actually move, the bard sings songs, the chanter does auras, the others kill, does that mean those not moving should be logged out?

    What difference is being afk in a zone while the rest of the group kills, than being in a group task and afk in the guild lobby?

    That one sentences has more grey areas than 50 shades of grey. :rolleyes:
    PCSS likes this.
  18. KermittheFroglok Augur


    Generally speaking, the angst is mostly among people finding themselves suspended for leaving their toons unattended or at least being flagged as such. I'm not worried because I either have a dedicated chat window/tab on each of my toons/boxes, that's the setup most recurring players have. I believe new players even default to having a chat tab & a combat tab in their windows.

    I doubt GM's are just frivolously jumping in zones & shooting people /tell & /say. From what I gather the recurring scenarios are:

    1) Someone stayed idle long enough to let their toon get auto flagged as <AFK> by the server. If the server's own timer determines you're repeatedly getting auto flagged AFK, that should be obvious that you've been inactive too long and should move or log. Systematically, its easy to have the server list out toons in <AFK> status yet still accumulating experience, items, etc. So I can easily see how that's what's prompting GM action... (Given best practices, I doubt they'll ever tell us how they determine who to check on)

    2) Someone else submitted a ticket because they think the player is AFK. Many of the AFK threads include accusations of others maliciously submitting tickets to get someone suspended. Even if you don't have a log, promptly submitting a ticket explaining you were looking at a different box would probably be enough to get your suspension lifted as you were at your computer to see yourself get disconnected.

    The best way to approach this is the mentality that the GM's won't recognize "feign ignorance" as a reason skirt the rules and the harsh reality is they're cracking down on people using AFK exploits. If you choose to tune out chat in a social MMO that's your prerogative, not their issue to sort out. Again, most players I know have separate tabs or windows for chat vs. combat. I've gotten more into boxing but I don't see validity in the "I shouldn't have to look at chat because I box or am antisocial" counter arguement.

    Frankly, the recent AFK suspensions seem relatively infrequent or minor compared to the volume of people posting when there was a crackdown on virtual machines being used on the Truebox TLPs or the whole Steam "claim gate" debacle.

    The GMs have been reasonable in reversing many suspensions where it's obvious there was activity on another associated account from the same IP, a prompt ticket, or log showing some client side interaction the GM just accidentally missed.

    I sincerely hope no one gets banned by mistake, but I'm also of the camp that "If you have to ask, you probably should rethink ____ as an allowable strategy."
  19. KermittheFroglok Augur


    Just so we're on the same page, I don't disagree that the wording could be made more clear or improved. But at the same time, I think to most it should be obvious what DBG wants you to generally do.

    Were you suspended for FD? I did a forum search during my lunch break and haven't been able to find an example of someone in FD getting suspended yet. But to that point, I'm not shocked because being in FD is essentially like being dead unless a spell hits you, it seems less likely the GMs would see any periodic report spit out that'd show a FD player with server activity.

    I'm not saying FD to circumvent the rules or avoid getting caught either, I'm just saying I can understand why/how FD toons wouldn't be caught.
    PCSS likes this.
  20. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Nope never been suspended (other than forums :rolleyes:). But I dislike breaking the rules, but that second sentence seams very much out of place, when there are so many different ways to avoid getting agro and killing while afk, amost it was writen by someone who doesn't play EQ.

    A few seconds is a very short time to expect someone to log out or move away from their camp.
    PCSS likes this.