Players input is often detrimental to the health of a game.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Strawberry, Jan 29, 2020.

  1. Cicelee Augur

    I remember going on my first Vox raid back in 2000. Over 120 people on that raid, casters bound in that tunnel behind her lair. Complete 100% zerg fest LOL.

    Player input and requests does sometime backfire. I know from personal experience, having asked for INT caster belts to have a heal proc added on, and instead they changed tank belts. So it always doesn't benefit us (although in that situation that could have been decided independent of request, but I digress). Having said that, player input and requests has created a lot of positive contributions and changes to the game.

    It is their world we are in. Always has, always will be. But I think both sides have learned that collaboration is good to making the game better in the long run...
    Tucoh likes this.
  2. Beimeith Augur

    Pretty sure LDoN raids originally used the "Adventure System" and the first true DZ's were in GoD and backported to LDoN and Plane of Time.
  3. Bobokin Augur

    My point was that large raids have always been a part of Everquest since raids were needed to take down Lady Vox, Lord Nagafen, and Phinigel Autropos.

    Being a casual player from a smaller guild, it would be nice to have smaller raid formats as well - as I stated. I am not sure why you took my statement above out of context.
  4. Groans Augur

    I agree with the OP, i have played group content and raided this game and its staff are totally in favor of the loot welfare system called raiding. Most of what they do benefits raiders and casauls are going away forever. We had to fight like mad to get the aoc added because Holly hates casuals. T2 tov gear barely lets a tank do t1 i mean wtf.
  5. That0neguy Augur

    Those were all added later. Kunark raiding was terrible and not a whole lot compared to other content. Velious probably being the exception but none of the clasic servers had "more" raiding then whats in the game today or the last 10yrs.
  6. enclee Augur

    Smaller formats are bad for casual guilds, because you’re not going to have the right class distribution and awareness. You need larger raid forces to help your stronger members carry through the weaker/tourist members.
    Lannin likes this.
  7. That0neguy Augur

    Time DZ was limited to 72 also. So flags were not the only thing limited. Regardless you are just proving my point. We were what, 4 or 5 years into the game before it was changed to 54? Even then there were exceptions. Txevu was OW and had no limit, RSS king and queen, ToB names. 54 man raids are hardly classic or a core part of EQ
  8. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    It isn't fair to compare open world events that you don't need an expedition for and have to compete with others for to raids in instanced zones with no competition. As for it being classic there is a longer period where a 54 person cap has been in place (especially if you count from when the raid tool was introduced) than having no cap or 72 persons.
    Lannin likes this.
  9. That0neguy Augur

    While that is correct. It doesn't make it "classic".

    The argument that we should leave it alone because its always been that way is a really bad argument and people should really back it up with reasons why its better instead of just defaulting to this is the way its always been.
  10. Rasper Helpdesk Augur

    Small note about PoTime. The DZ was limited to 72, yes, but the tune point was 54. The first phase was limited to 3 trials of 18 max after all. I remember that being a rather big point of contention for guilds that had Huge numbers to get through PoEb..
  11. Tucoh Augur

    It's not trivial but doing it for both raid and group content will dramatically improve EQ. EQ has developed a bimodal distribution of player capability and trying to strike a balance with one difficulty mode makes it either too easy or too hard for most of your playerbase. Normal + hard modes for group/raid content would facilitate your casual playerbase being able to see all the content they paid for while allowing your hardcore playerbase being challenged enough to give them a reason to stay subbed all year to prep for the next phase of content.

    As a side note: be consistent about raid sizes. Different sizes cause fissures in guilds. I think EQ first learned this lesson in 2003 and there's no need to repeat it.
    Lannin and enclee like this.
  12. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Considering that we only got 9 raids in the latest expansion wouldn't it be a good possibility that we would get fewer if they had to tune different difficulty levels considering the last time we had hard mode raids they just limited the numbers that could join?
    Yinla likes this.
  13. Tucoh Augur

    Sure. It depends on how much effort EQ developers spend trying to balance raids and the method they use to make a normal mode vs hard mode. Hard mode could be as basic as reducing the duration on some failure mechanic by a tick and increasing damage / attack / strikethrough across the board. As a player I have no opinion on the difficulty in doing so besides trusting Prathun when he says it's not trivial.

    Re: number of raids, in some people's perspective, TBL only had one real raid and a bunch of warm-ups. In other people's perspective, they have no chance to see all the content in an expansion until it's several years old.
  14. Bobokin Augur

    How did you come to that conclusion? A small raid of 18 players should be tuned to the class mix of 18 players.

    In any case, a casual guild will not likely get 50 players together for a raid, and that is the major point.
  15. yepmetoo Augur


    Let's be clear, the real point of people like you is that you want something for nothing.

    Group gear is functionally almost as good as RAID gear from the LAST expansion. Very close. It is more than enough to do any group content. So if you don't raid, you don't need that gear.

    If you were a guild of maxed out group players (as in, 24 of them), who play well enough to raid, nothing is stopping you from recruiting people and doing older raids and working through content.

    If you can't even have that many, there is no raids you're going to beat anyway.

    So let's be real, what you want, is multi group content that is easy and drops gear better than you need, to get you closer to real raiders, to make you feel better about yourself and let you steamroll group content.

    If the point is to raid for a challenge above and beyond grouping, nothing is stopping people from doing it.

    If the point is that you feel ENTITLED to things you don't deserve just because you can do it? Oh well.

    18 or 24 person "raid" content is a joke. There is no such thing. Never has been. It has ALWAYS been glorified group content that 6-9 competent people can blow through. There are simple mechanics limitations to this game with regard to healing that means only dps and timers can really limit content in that manner. Which is why when you make ToV raids a joke mechanics-wise, raid guilds can do them flawlessly with 30 people without any ToV gear.

    But of course, those whining about wanting smaller raids are usually the same ones whining about things like convorteum or the VP mission "requiring" 2 groups. Because we all know the real deal. Bad players in bad guilds wanting to get everything tuned to their limitations or their obstinate refusal to move on or put in proper effort and make the game boring and easy for everyone else.

    So how many people is good enough? 42? Would whine about that, and the fact of the matter is, guilds would quickly wind down to enough players to do the content, then to not enough, then whine about the game "needing" smaller raids to accommodate THEIR failure.

    Then 36?

    Then 24?

    Then 12?

    If you don't want to raid, then don't raid. If you don't want to go to an established guild and try and help it succeed or be a part of the existing success, then put in the effort to make your guild what you want it to be. Or accept that you aren't a raider, the game owes you nothing but access to content, and its up to YOU to utilize that content, or not.
    Xondor, Duder, Maedhros and 3 others like this.
  16. Bigstomp Augur

    Why should you earn XP for doing OMM missions?
    Your character is doing nothing. Your character is not experiencing anything.

    Why would we want to reduce raid size? Want to kill the raid game? Reduce raid size.
    Lets make raids 24 person deals.
    We've just tossed out 30 people/raid team unless we split raid things.

    Make it easy. Join a raid team if you want to raid.
    Lannin likes this.
  17. Xanadas Augur

    There have been plenty of changes to the game that I, as a "veteran" oppose, that I feel hurt the health of the game. But who am I to say my way is best? Who are you to claim the same?

    There were DON two and three-group missions that yielded crazy good rewards for the minimal amount of effort. Regarding guilds going belly-up - I was part of several guilds struggling to field a raid force - they all either pushed recruitment and continued, or merged with other guilds. That's how it goes. IMHO, rarely does a guild go belly up simply because they can't field a raid force. It's usually because the players lose interested in the game, bad leadership, or both.

    Not familiar with OMM or monster missions (other than the fact I hated the MM's in DODH) - but how could you possibly have metrics to support your claim that players left as a direct result of this?

    Again, worse in your opinion. As somebody else says below: changes will always upset somebody.
    Xondor likes this.
  18. Xanadas Augur

    This made me freaking lol - because its funny -- and true.
  19. Daedly Augur

    I would just assume they remove the 54 person cap rather than lower the number that can be in there. If people want to throw a full 72 people at raid, let them. Same with group missions too.

    Just don't increase the rewards or flags, keep that inline with how things are now.
  20. Maedhros Augur

    Early candidate for worst post of the year.
    Xondor, Celephane and Allayna like this.

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