Pets don't push, melee do

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by fransisco, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. Rainbowdash Augur

    That's true enough haha. Though just about everything in EQ ranges from 1/4th the size of a human to well above 10 times a human's size and all of them (at one point from level 1 to 95) dangerous :p
  2. Sarshish New Member

    The reason melee complain so much about missing dps with mobs being pushed... You get several seconds of "mob too far" or "can't see" because SOE doesn't know how to fix mob movement update issues. They changed it some time ago so when the mob moves a fast position update is sent to the UI. However they failed to make it send this update when the mob is moved (pushed) so it takes time for new mob position to be updated on the UI when the server knows the move happened some time ago and won't let you hit it.

    This is especially a problem with Wild Rampage as melee are at max range to keep from getting killed by the AE rampage damage. So mob moves further away and you lose tons of dps, or mob moves closer and a bunch of melee die due to insane rampage damage and you lose tons more dps. I've been hit 4x for 20k, or more, before and not everyone has enough hp to survive that especially with AE spell damage being added on top of that.

    Push is stupid as well as AE Rampage, both should be removed!
  3. Delbaeth Elder

    Watch a few fights where the boss is free to move around via push. You will see a few quixotic melees attempting to counter push while the nearly the whole raid is in one clump pushing together. All the pets are on the dominant side making push worse. Even if you do get a rare caster who does actually care it only takes a moment for the pet to wind up on the wrong side. Pet owners stop caring in milliseconds.

    Check your logs and see all the Pestilence Shock procs where players do 1' push for meaningless damage and aggro. If your bards are not on the counter push side their bellow is adding to the problem.

    Only a few players give a rat's $$$. They work to counter push like vikings fighting Ragnorak, knowing all the time they are doomed. It is totally hopeless as the raid will push the mob over them at 60 miles an hour but they fight on anyway. All three or four of them.

    Everyone else knows when the event is done there will be credits for the top parses and raspberries for any DPS class caught by a beastlord but there will be absolutely no interest in who helped keep the mob under control or who pushed it to Siberia.

    Pets are special because they are 100% perfect at pushing the wrong way every time.
  4. Khoza Augur

    Quote of the year material, right there.

    I can certainly see why people hate push. I wouldn't go nuts over it if it was removed, and it would make life easier at times, but I like it the way it is. I've adapted myself to it, I expect it, I use it at times. I would have adapted again if they had removed it, but most times, I enjoy having something I still have to pay attention to.
  5. Siddar Augur

    Pets push. A fully Barded up main necro pet can push someone with surprising swiftness..

    Original poster need to test again without attacking just let pet attack so your not countering the pets push.
  6. Rainbowdash Augur

    People just want all the challenge removed. Learning to control push, especially in environments where it's needed, is part of knowing your class and one of the things you have to watch, maintain, etc. Plus, as Khoza mentioned, it can be used to your advantage in some situations.

    People keep saying "Sony hasn't removed pet push yet, Sony hasn't removed pet push yet. Rawr". There are times you may need to just step back and think "There's probably a reason Sony hasn't done this yet..."
  7. Piemastaj Augur

    The reason was 'oh EQ players decided push SHOULD be removed, however it was not a big enough margin for us to remove it'. It was polled and the majority voted to remove push, SOE either would not put the resources together to actually remove it or they really do like it.

    The only challenge is, who can complain the most about pets pushing the mobs around. Dumb mechanic is dumb.
  8. Ezlano Journeyman

    Pets do push. However, melee that have forgotten the art of surrounding the mob exorbitantly increase the issue. I have watched a Warrior, with just shield and 1hander, push mobs over three Ruthless Servants and my Air pet. It is just easier to blame pets; they have have been a scapegoat for as long as I can remember.
    Trevise likes this.
  9. Ronak Augur

    Post of the year. Would read again.
    Elricvonclief and Trevise like this.
  10. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    Player melee push was removed from the game, as was pet push and mob push originally. Pet and Mob push was quickly returned to the game, because they are somehow linked and mobs not pushing players pretty much made it so players were effectively never interrupted in casting anything; which unbalanced 10+ expansions worth of content at the time so it was returned.
    Player melee push however was removed from the game and still remains absent from the game*. The only way melee "push" a mob is going to be via procs or special abilities which purposefully cause push (ex. Monk AA Dragon Punch - adds knockback to the Dragon Punch special) or which produce swarm pets (ex. Monk Disc Cloud of Fists - swarm pets). So sorry all those blaming all the melee being on one side, the melee are not the source of the push (though the miss use of their swarm pets where applicable may be).

    *If someone can come up patch notes or Dev's directly stating that PC melee push was reintroduced to the game I would love to see it.
  11. Eico Eico New Member

    What Push?!
  12. Reprisal Augur

    Yeah, I don't know, sounds and looks wrong.

    Here's Rashere's post from back in the day, can't link to it because forums have been played with a lot since then:
    "Rashere wrote:

    It's funny that you ask that...because we were just looking at it and its not only true, but the key to a short term fix to push. The amount of push imparted on a hit is based on the skill that was used in the attack that hit the NPC. Some attack types do more than others.

    The short term fix, which we just did and it might actually make the patch next week, was to cut all those values in half.

    This also led to the answer to the spell question. Where skills get their force from the define for the skill type, spells get their force from the spell define of their knockback force. If the spell has no knockback force, then the push force is 0 so it shouldn't cause any push.

    Procs are just spells, so don't add any additional push beyond that imparted by the weapon hit itself.

    Rashere, wrapping up the play-by-play of "Devs digging into old code"

    *snip*

    In the end, we cut push by 90% instead of 50%, so there will be a very noticeable difference after the patch. Rashere "
  13. Trevise New Member


    And... after today's patch that ability is being nerfed on chanters.
  14. Eico Eico New Member

    my favorite is listening to a pet class tell the "melee" class to refer back to raiding 101, surround the mob to help eliminate push.

    /snicker

    yeah.

    monk kick push is horrible. absolutely terrible.

    Eico
  15. Noobieguy Augur

    If I were a tank I would be hitting my knock back AA every time it came up till people figured out how to negate the push. It's easy in a group setting, since there are only a few people to take into account.. It's much harder in raids since you have to get everyone to work at it, and some don't care about controlling it.

    LOL I have seen HORRIBLE push from just 2 melee DPS while tanking on my alt. There were no pets, so I know it was the melee (probably procs and special attacks). If you think putting all the melees behind the mob doesn't cause push, you are freaking crazy. Pets DO contribute, but if I had to bet, I would most definitely bet that melees will cause more push than pets.
  16. FatbukSlapmeat Augur

    Melee probably do cause more push than pets, but melee can reposition. Spam pets just keep plowing.
  17. Aildyen_MP Lorekeeper

    A raid learning to balance push is no different than learning tank switches, aggro control, etc.
  18. Uxtalzon Augur

    Now that swarm pets are the norm, it goes like this:

    - Mob gets pushed into a corner, so players fight a one-quarter visible named for the rest of the fight because that's how Sony designed it.

    - Mob gets knocked around like a package being mailed by the USPS and you see melee doing "the pause" because they see the mob in one place, but the game registers it elsewhere, and they turn slightly as if going "wha?" and take a few steps to get back into the fight.

    Fun as a paladin sometimes. Cast the big 10 second stun and Divine Stun immediately after, and watch other melee play catch-up. ;) I know where I'm pushing it, so I don't miss a beat. lol
  19. Ronak Augur

    Not at all. You aren't going to win raids if you can't understand how to do a tank switch, or control aggro, or etc. Push control has nothing to do with winning raids. It's simply an annoyance, and archaic mechanic that only one game has.
  20. Caudyr Augur

    That's not 100 percent true. On a fight like the Sarith raid, if you push the NPC off his little platform, you will get trained with a metric ton of mobs...likely wiping your raid (likely, not always :p). I know my guild had banned pets on those raids because our guild doesn't know how to balance pets around the mob, as well as lurched the NPC there.

    ...after that the casters all looked in the same direction that the melee were pushing in anyway, pushing the mob around even more. So yeah...w/the lurch nerf one viable way to keep a mob from being run all over the place (though it does bounce, heh) is removed....unless they're getting a new version or something.