Pet Mitigation Ninja nerf

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Vincecross, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. Adonhiram Augur

    /nod

    Also, I'd recommend pulling them with Malaise.
  2. Adonhiram Augur

    Want us to do a list of mage charmable mobs in PoP, taking into account the mob type (summoned) and the level restriction (60 iirc) ? It pretty much narrows down to the lesser elem mobs in BoT.
  3. Gnomeland Augur

    It's funny to hear this because I'm pretty sure back in classic when I first started playing, necro pets dual wielding daggers did double the DPS of any melee class, as well. In fact, it's the mage pets that weren't up to speed, because they couldn't dual wield and therefore couldn't quad attack for 50+ damage each hit a round.

    Not all of us remember classic only from progression servers. You want the classic experience? This *is* the classic experience - necros are gods, enchanters/mages/wizards are lesser gods, and melees are those guys who ran around begging the gods for groups.

    That is to say, precisely the opposite of what they all want to see today. In fact, I don't know who they're kidding with abilities such as "mark of the old ways," because pet walling is as old as Everquest and the "old ways" involved plenty of pet tanking, charm tanking, etc. They ought to have called it "mark of the whiners' victory" because that's ultimately what it is.
  4. Gnomeland Augur

    From what I remember...

    Classic - Necros were the strongest class; their pets out damaged players; Mage pets were decent tanks but not exceptional because practically anyone could tank; Pets >= Players

    Kunark - Enchanters were the strongest class because charmed mob damage doubled/tripled from Classic but pet damage did not, though it was risky because they didn't yet have all the tools to control charmed pets; Necros and Mages were both a lot weaker than they were in Classic due to lower damage increases compared to mobs and players; Mages pets, especially epic pet, could still tank but were falling off; Mages begin to decisively overtake Necros in pet quality; Pets <= Players

    Velious - Enchanters remained the strongest class because mob damage again increased; Necro and Mage pets fell off even further due to no level increase, and now we are starting to see Mage pets struggle against content, though few people cared because you were already exp capped from Kunark; Pets < Players

    Luclin - Melees and Necros became the strongest classes because of mob hp inflation, as they had the best sustained DPS; Enchanters started falling off because of limited increases in mob DPS, but Dire Charm helped to soften the fall in groups; Mages become mediocre because no level increase and poor mana regen, but their pets could still tank due to Luclin mobs hitting for ****; Pets < Players

    Planes of Power - This is the first expansion in which Mages become absolutely terrible because the power increase for mobs vastly outstripped the power increase for pets. Mage pets cannot tank past the first few zones. Necros are seen switching fully to aggro kiting; Pets << Players

    Lost Dungeons of Norrath - minimal changes from Planes of Power; Pets << Players

    Gates of Discord - aka when most people quit Everquest. Absolute massive increases to mob power, without any level increase for players, result in Mage pets being worthless against Gates of Discord content. Enchanters face across-the-board charm mitigation and are neutered except in 1-2 zones, where the mitigation wasn't applied. Necros face snare immunes and summoners all over the expansion but do find a few places where they can successfully aggro kite; Pets << Players

    Omens of War - The level increase helps soften the disparity. Mage pets are able to tank again around the level they did in Luclin. Necro pets are, of course, worse, but they get by through aggro kiting. Enchanters continue to be neutered, though I believe the level of charm mitigation was gradually weakened, don't know the exact process; Pets < Players

    Dragons of Norrath - minimal changes from Omens of War; Pets < Players

    Depth of Darkhollow - drastic increase to mob power without level increase; beginning of Dark Age for Mages; Pets << Players

    Prophecy of Ro - minimal changes from Depth of Darkhollow; continuance of Dark Age for Mages; Pets << Players

    The Serpent Spine - a level increase expansion; pet tanking situation improves slightly but pets are very obviously worse than players in every way; continuation of Dark Age for Mages; Pets << Players

    The Buried Sea - same as The Serpent Spine, except the addition of accessible swarm pets improves the tanking situation for those able to get it; still a Dark Age for Mages but light is seen at the end of the tunnel as the Mage CL around this time is able to obtain the developers' ear; Pets < Players

    Secrets of Faydwer - pets are massively buffed due to efforts by the Mage community & CL; the beginning of the Age of Mages; suddenly, mage pets could tank again; Pets = Players

    Seeds of Destruction - continuation of the Age of Mages; another level increase leads to another round of pets, and because Seeds of Destruction doesn't exponentially increase mob damage, Mage pets begin out-pacing mob damage in mitigation; but the expansion itself is generally believed to be on the easy side; Pets = Players

    Underfoot - sudden interruption of the Age of Mages; no level increase leads to no pet increase, and the expansion's drastically scaled up damage from mobs once again brings back memories of the Dark Age; expansion itself is, however, considered to be hard by all classes, and group geared tanks struggle as much as Mage pets; generally a hard expansion; Pets <= Players

    House of Thule - restoration of the Age of Mages; expansion being designed around gear inflation, Mage pets start off tougher than group-geared player tanks; although House of Thule is generally considered to be on the easier side of expansions, Mages still reach a power curve different from any reached before; Pets > Players initially, then Pets = Players

    Veil of Alaris - continuation of Age of Mages; even though pets are stagnated, in actuality they continue tanking around the level of group-geared players; Pets = Players

    Rain of Fear - apex of the Age of Mages; this is because this is the last expansion before the 2014 mitigation nerfs, when pet power, using the old armor table, is at its absolute maximum; Mages are monsters on release; Pets > Players throughout the expansion

    Call of the Forsaken - the fat lady begins to sing for the Age of Mages, as mitigation nerfs brought about by Warriors are implemented towards the beginning of the expansion; however, while the changes hurt, they don't manage to completely ruin Mages, as by this stage, there are enough mitigation/avoidance tools in the hands of Mages that flat mitigation is less important for single targets; against multiple targets, however, players pull decisively ahead of Mage pets; Pets <= Players

    The Darkened Sea - continuation of the previous expansion; the Age of Mages draws to a close, but because multiple mob pulls remain rare, Mages continue to be successful; Pets <= Players

    The Broken Mirror - massive nerfs to pets on progression servers due to pet walling filter also onto Live; pet aggro takes such a huge hit that Mages are effectively broken in many scenarios; future is no longer certain; possible beginning of another Dark Age for Mages; Pets < Players currently, could be << Players by the end of the expansion
  5. Lyrical Augur

    Dahman is being serious, but hillarious at the same time. You can go all hp/ac on a mage and they will still tank like they are wearing cloth. The reason he is going "toe to toe" is because even with the new uber aggro AA for pets that was added after dbg broke the pets.............he still pulls aggro with 1 nuke. And the funny part. If he doesnt pull aggro with one nuke, the pet is likely going to be dead before the 2nd nuke lands, and certainly if he waits till the 3rd. Once the pet is below 20% the hill giant will not leave the pet alone until its dead.\

    This has been my point all along that you failed to understand because you are debating mages with no facts and only how you feel about them after years of class envy.

    By the way in regards to your bait and switch about toe to toe with hill giants. No one ever mentioned that but you. Mages NEVER went toe to toe with Hill giants before and you brought that up as though they could. So i mentioned all the other classes that could SOLO hgs the way mages use to could. So your point was totally lost.

    As for the dahaman fella who is giving us great information on his progress soloing.........this guy is having to face tank giants as a caster, in order to beat one.Our pets could NOT solo them when they were still dark blue to a caster before the nerf either. You had to loosen a few nukes to beat one but your pet could hold it off of you until you nuked it dead. Wizards could and still can root/nuke them without tanking. Necros could and can still snare dot kite them. Chanters can still charm their very own HG and slaughter others one after another. They take a hit when the pet breaks but a quick stun/tash/recharm and they are back in business. If it gets out of control just aoe mez and rinse and repeat.

    Again while im quite proud our journeyman mage is finding a way to get it done...............are you seriously still prepared to tell me that this is what was intended for the mage class? Make them the only caster that has to face tank mobs in order to kill something? Its like taking a rogues backstab and saying it was to overpowered. You can keep your back stab, but it does less damage and works just like taunt when used because you pull aggro........just like a mage nuking they pull aggro with 1 spell if pet is tanking.
  6. Poydras Augur

    What bait and switch? Apparently you still don't follow me here. I admitted I didn't consider a chain nuking strategy as "toe to toe" since I was thinking in terms of tanking the mob as a genuine utility ability that is useful in groups too. And obviously killing the mob in a matter of seconds before it can hurt you like it should, makes the claim of tank'ability for a cloth-wearer rather silly. You would seem to agree. I was talking in terms of tanking ability of melees versus tanking by the pet. This matters because if your pet can tank things that other classes can kite, then your pet can tank things that other groups need balanced healers and tanks to kill, which is grossly unfair given the pet's innate regen.

    As for lacking facts, I do play a mage as you can see where you quoted me there, my experience is actually that they are weaker than Dahaman suggests. Of course my example is at higher level and in a subsequent expansion so the matter hasn't really been settled.

    And again solo is a minor aspect of EQ. The locations kiting can work is situational (hey kinda like mage charm in PoP, amazing). It requires 100% of your attention, is quite tiring, and makes the game very much seem like work. It isn't nearly the class balance factor that you seem to think it is.
  7. Dahaman Augur

    I agree completely.

    Alas, it is equally silly to expect and demand... due to the implemented new class design... that a cloth wearer should be face tanking in the first place.

    Welcome to the mage's world...
  8. Moranis Augur

    The only real detriment to the class is that they can't solo *as* well anymore. They're still undoubtedly the best group-DPS.

    The lack of being able to use the epic pet against MotM mobs for fear of quick death is truly unfortunate though, because getting epics are a PITA.
  9. Poydras Augur

    Again, the solo game is a small part of the game. You are not required to face tank mobs to kill mobs or level via the intended route in everquest. When they launched phinny you were notified that you should look for groups and friends. The whole point of phinny is grouping with real players and raiding the instances. I chose my class with this in mind and others should have as well. Kiting in fact was originally considered an exploit. They put in summoning and unsnarable mobs to severely limit this strategy.The ability to solo in this game is not some kind of inalienable right.

    That said I am not against mages being given improvements to allow them to solo (and, contribute more in raids for that matter). I just argue against the improvements I think are horribly unbalanced. I didn't object to reducing the pet aggro did I? Though while we're talking about improving mages we do need to stop overlooking mages' significant superiority to most other classes in groups. They aren't in the worst shape of all classes by any stretch. However I can think of lots of ways to help solo mages out: Perhaps a tank pet with minimal dps and good defense but with warrior-like hp regen (and also gets insta-banished by motm mobs). Or a snare of some kind. An ability to fear mobs perhaps. I don't post much on these ideas because I really really don't care about solo, just like I keep saying.
  10. Lyrical Augur

    Mages had this already. Fire pets were great burst damage but couldnt tank for crap so they were used in groups with a strong tank and a clarity or mana feed class support. Air pets were used as good dps but useful stuns against mobs that were healers or casters or where your tank was a little on the weak side those stuns made him a better healable tank. Water pets back stab in groups and did good dps solo or grouped and could off tank in a pinch like the air pet. You didnt want to use them as the main tank. Earth pets didnt do near the dps as the other 3 but boy they could take a lick and keep on ticking. They also chain cast root to help keep the mobs off of guess who.......the mage.

    Ya see we already had all that. The nerf made air water and fire toilet paper tanking wise. On phinny I have used air pet once, water pet once, and have yet to even cast a fire pet. Earth pet is the only one that can take enough hits that allow me to get a couple nukes off before he dies. Except now.........2 nukes = the mob is coming after the mage even with the pet AA provocation.

    You want balance. Then mages should be balanced with other casters period. Right now the pet is often times more a detriment than a help if the mage wants to cast nukes. That is a huge problem.

    Dahaman should not be face tanking a dark blue hill giant to beat it when the other 3 casters are not expected to do so.period . If all 4 caster classes could solo because of their special abilities then there is no reason not to reverse a nerf that makes mages unable to do so without becoming a tank.
  11. Poydras Augur

    Thanks for the review. I suppose you could say they had that already, if by that you mean they had way the hell too much in addition along with it. You plucked out your favorite parts of my suggestion and discounted the additional balance factors. Comparing earth pet dps to other mage pet dps is amusingly far from the point. Compare a mage with earth pet to a wizard in a xp group. Since you think that pet is minimal dps. If the wizard isn't doing better sustained damage, then a mage and his totally-not-for-dps pet, then apparently that pet is still too much dps too. Because now the mage has tank quality defense to add to the imbalance too. Wow this situation actually sounds familiar. But at least wizards can snare themselves along with the mob for an annoying amount of mana, right? That's fair.

    I also said the regen needs to be warrior-like. As in many minutes to regen to full, not seconds. They sure as hell didn't have this already. You missed this one.

    And finally the insta-banish thing is key to stop the chain-cast pet walls, which would have probably required a ton to implement hence the nerf. You missed this one too.
  12. Moranis Augur

    I think the key to all of this is that *something* needed to be done to stop the different "mage exploits" such as petwalling, ease of mass boxing, or whatever, and the path of least_code_resistance led to this.

    Yea, in hindsight, they probably could have been better off by doing a bunch of different things that each of you think would be "ideal" but they probably would have required a lot of dev time that they don't have to spend on one class that is still very powerful.
  13. Dahaman Augur

    Just to make sure...

    I'm not suggesting anything about "improving" mages. I've only been trying to analyze the pet mitigation nerf and its effects. I think that the long term affects changed some things not wholly intended. The main one is that the mage tanks better as a cloth caster.

    That said...

    Your suggestion of a lower damage pet that can tank better is something I can get behind. Lower level pets do way too much damage in my opinion. Granted, I said as much way up thread.

    I can also get behind lowering pet regen rate. I'd implement the pet heal spells immediately with that change though.
  14. Poydras Augur

    Pet heals should be coming to phinny fairly soon as it is. At least up to 87 points or whatever. And worst case you could just reclaim energy and summon a new one, so the downtime from pet regen has a limit ultimately based on mana regen anyway.
  15. Dahaman Augur

    Dismissing and summoning the pet eliminates the viability of giving the pet equipment.

    But, as you say, 5 weeks until Kunark... can't wait!

    (to make my iksar necromancer and shelve the mage...? hah... maybe...)
  16. Poydras Augur

    You just need to loot/summon pet equipment more often. Anyway a tank pet should already be able to tank mobs for you in solo situations without giving him equipment, and should be crappy dps either way for balance reasons, also rendering equipment unnecessary. You want your cake and to eat it too? group with a healer.
  17. Adonhiram Augur

    Thank you Gnomeland, that was an excellent "historical" post, my memories till HoT where I quitted are pretty much the same as yours, the Trophy of the Dark Ages undoubtly going to GoD.Well done :)

    However, I kindly disagree on DoD being a Dark Age for us. DoD introduced the new Servant (temporary gargoyle secondary pets, first one in DoD era was Raging Servant) line of pets which became class defining for mages and deeply, positively, impacted the mage's playstyle.

    Whereas DoD mobs gained in power, the introduction of a high aggro high dps and decent tank as secondary pet really changed a lot for us mages. It allowed us to pet tank mobs we could not before through the mechanism of aggro sharing between regular pet and gargoyle pet, buying us time to heal or to resummon/unsuspend if needed the regular pet ; it gave us a limited crowd control tool when facing an unexpected add or "holding" one mob while another one sticked on regular pet, and so on.

    Expansion after expansion, that new aspect of the mage class grew stronger and became a core "ability" of the class, to the point that the common focus on groupable or raidable chest pieces used to be... an increase of the duration of the summoned gargoyle pet (2,3 seconds...)

    To me, DoD was a blessed expansion. My mage buddies and myself in my old guild (D'Pikeys on AB) all considered DoD and the Servant line of pets to be a milestone in the evolution of the mage class.
  18. Adonhiram Augur

    And if you allow me a second comment about your excellent analysis, I'd also add that TSS was the end of Green Pet Pulling (GPP). THAT was the Dark Age, I never felt so sad ;-)

    Of course, GPP was an exploit, and TSS "fixed" that, I won't deny that. It also affected all pet classes, not only mages. But it clearly weakened the mages because they were the best at GPP (combo of a green fire pet to pull from a distance + unsuspending regular pet/sending gargoyle at singled mob once properly drawn away from its friends).

    In DoD and OoW I became a very potent puller for difficult situations thanks to GPP. I remember guild warriors and clerics took me as puller in DoD group missions, and for more relaxed situations as everyday grouping in MPG I had to pull rooms with multiple mobs when no pulling class was available.
  19. Lawyer Augur

    Fix this already, Daybreak.
  20. Kahna Augur

    Technically, giants are immune to stun and mez. It's root only, or face tank the giant while you recharm. Still not hard.
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